Misused: Not So Different

Nothing new, we just haven't gotten around to the new description yet.

Ah. What's the new description gonna be like?

Well, we need to make it clear that the trope is about in-universe realizations and that it can apply to entire groups as well as pairings. I was going to take a crack at rewriting it but haven't had the time.

Give it some thought. Maybe there should be a way to help you out.

Well, anyone can do the description if they want to, I just volunteered because nobody else jumped for it.

Has there been any progress so far?

I will try to reword it and make the criteria of the trope clear.

Sure thing.

New description looks fine, however you should've done it in the sandbox. But I guess it doesn't matter.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jun 17th 2021 at 4:58:07 AM

My bad, I just wanted to get it over with quickly since it wasn't going anywhere.

Anyway, is everyone else fine with the new description?

It was TLDR to me; I think I like it.

Not sure on the "Contrasts" paragraph right now, but quick rewrite of an earlier sentence;

Aren't foils highlighted for being different? Well, I guess they're not foils if they're total opposites...

crazysamaritan, I just kept the "Contrasts with" paragraph as is, but on a closer look, I don't even know what does You Keep Telling Yourself That has to do with the trope itself.

I didn't add anything about Foils because I thought it might be confusing, and I wasn't sure how to write it with clarity. And wow. Didn't know that the Foil definition is different for everyone. Guess I was right not to include it.

I mean, a Foil is basically a character who possesses traits that contrasts strikingly with another character. So, like War Jay 77 said, they're indeed different (not total opposites but still distinctly different), unlike what the "Not So Different" Remark trope describes.

Well, yeah. That's why I pointed out that being completely different isn't the same as being a foil. However, foils are meant to highlight differences, not similarities. That's what the issue is. Foils have just enough similarities to make the differences more apparent.

To have a "Not So Different" Remark, I'd assume that, well, the remark needs to be about similarities. Otherwise wouldn't it just be Foil, Lampshaded or Discussed?

Edited by WarJay77 on Jun 19th 2021 at 8:52:25 AM

So, to summarize:

Foil Highlights certain qualities to create contrast between two characters. No lampshading necessary. While NSDR Points out the similarities between 2 or more ""opposing"" characters. Lampshading is absolutely necessary for this trope, as a comment of sorts needs to be made in-universe about these similarities.

I'll keep the description as is, but I'll add what I wrote above and remove the You Keep Telling Yourself That bit. How's that?

Edited by selkies on Jun 19th 2021 at 9:25:44 AM

yeah

Edited by crazysamaritan on Jun 20th 2021 at 11:36:49 AM

You're missing my point, Crazy. I never said these characters couldn't be Foil, but that if the remark discusses their differences, it's not this trope. So a remark stating that characters are Foils isn't NSDR, because that implies it's discussing differences. A remark stating that the foils are similar are.

I don't disagree that foils can be Not So Different from each other, however foils by nature are meant to be opposites in such a way that those differences stand out in the contrast. Every page you linked supports that statement, because the foils are based on the contrast and opposition, even if they're otherwise very similar. So, just stating that the characters are foils would imply that the statement being made is "they're so different".

You can compare the similarities of foils, sure, but foils are meant to highlight differences through interaction. The narrative can address these similarities- that'd be an NSDR, absolutely- but to say that foils can "highlight similarities" is misleading, and none of your links seem to back it up as a possibility in the way you claimed they could. And by highlight I wasn't talking about NSDR, but just ordinary character interaction.

TL;DR: There's a difference between making a statement simply describing that characters are Foils and two foils having an NSDR. That's really all I'm trying to get at.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jun 20th 2021 at 1:41:08 PM

I totally get your point. Besides, Foils don't necessarily need to be at odds, they can be between amicable friends, or couples or whoever, and we see their differences via interactions esp through their different circumstances, personalities, etc.

NSDR requires at least 2 characters to clash; thus, it can never be just a lampshaded Foil because Foil on its own doesn't indicate disharmony. Basically, 1) Foil only contrasts a character with another, no clashing or lampshading needed. 2) NSDR doesn't "highlight" differences, no; it remarks that 2 clashing are [ironically] are parallels of each other, so both clashing + lampshading are required.

That aside, we need to establish a distinction between Not So Similar if we're gonna keep it in the description.

One week has passed since the last post in this thread.

Has there been anything new?

If nobody's posted, probably not...?

You seem really concerned about the speed of these things, but it'd help a lot if you yourself pitched in and helped us finish the work. A lot of us are tackling multiple projects at once and burnout is a very real thing. We can't get everything done in a timely manner without help.

How 'bout this? This example in the Animated Films subpage of the old name reads as follows:

"This example is notable in that most cases of Not So Different are really just the villain's last-ditch attempt at getting under the hero's skin, often used when he or she has exhausted all other options and is on the ropes. Pitch was pretty much winning at this point in the film, and all signs indicate to his subsequent We Can Rule Together moment being genuine. It also takes on a whole deeper meaning if you're aware of Pitch's origins in the books the film is based off of: Pitch is a Fallen Hero in the books, and only became evil when the monsters he was tasked with guarding tricked him into thinking that his daughter was imprisoned with them. He freed them, hoping to save her, and then was transformed into Pitch Black the Nightmare King. In Jack's case, his origin is similar, but has a happy ending. You find out right before the Final Battle that Jack was originally a young man living in colonial America, who'd gone ice skating with his younger sister when the ice had started to crack. He sacrificed himself to save her, so the Man in the Moon resurrected him as Jack Frost."

I deleted the "of Not So Different" part of the example because of the rename. And the movie in question is Rise of the Guardians.

Does that count as dewicking? Or not?

Edited by UnderlyingCause on Jun 27th 2021 at 7:26:49 AM

It does. Though whenever possible you should move it to "Not So Different" Remark- when it fits the new definition and title.

Ok, I think I handled all the subpages except for the following:

• Music
• Real Life
• Toys
• Visual Novels
• Web Original

None of the folders had the old name either.

How many remaining wicks are there?

Edited by UnderlyingCause on Jun 27th 2021 at 8:21:05 AM