#2: Feb 16th 2021 at 7:29:05 AM
Opening on the basis of the on-page example use.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Tabs
Since: Jan, 2001
#3: Feb 16th 2021 at 10:38:09 AM
- I think Healing Suffering and Healing Tradeoff/Healing Has A Price can be one trope. The ideas are similar: unpleasant things occur as part of or as a result of treatment, but treatment is still preferable.
- Harmful Healing Method is the main focus.
- Healing Gone Wrong sounds like some tropes we already have. There are examples of ineptness that aren't comical that probably fit under Harmful Healing Method.
- Malicious Healing definitely doesn't feel right on this trope. Sounds like Good Powers, Bad People and the Doctor Who example is not healing at all.
GastonRabbit
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
from Robinson, Illinois, USA
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#4: Feb 26th 2021 at 11:59:39 PM
I agree.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
#5: Mar 23rd 2021 at 2:55:53 PM
Clock is ticking.
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Tabs
Since: Jan, 2001
#6: Mar 23rd 2021 at 3:54:25 PM
I'm up for just cutting tradeoff and malicious, since those are the farthest from the definition. Or just leave Harmful Healing alone and allow it to be some sort of supertrope.
GastonRabbit
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
from Robinson, Illinois, USA
(General of TV Troops)
Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
#7: Mar 23rd 2021 at 10:39:49 PM
I'd prefer the latter, since it would mean we might have to just end up tweaking the description instead of going through all the wicks.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 23rd 2021 at 12:40:49 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
#8: Mar 24th 2021 at 1:53:08 AM
I think we can leave it alone and if people want to split those tropes off, they can.
Macron's notes
#9: Apr 10th 2021 at 12:03:10 PM
Clock restarted.
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#10: Apr 14th 2021 at 6:32:39 AM
Clock expired; closing.
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Total posts: 10
Reading about Harmful Healing trope, I've found it has tendency to be misused and/or the description isn't clear enough.
Additionally, going by posted examples there seems to be a demand for more specific child tropes. Additionally, the relationship between Harmful Healing and Comically Inept Healing could be clarified (Harmful Healing description suggests that Comically Inept Healing deals with harm caused by incompetent treatment).
Subtypes/categories
Generally, the examples tend to fall into at least one of the following categories (for some multiple categories may apply):
Healing Suffering - the temporary pain or other kind of suffering likely/certain to occur during treatment; whether treatment is effective or not is not the concern.
Examples would include fever or pain caused by the immune response, having to drink a gross mixture or having leeches placed on body. Some healers might invoke this trope by deliberately making treatments more painful than necessary (e.g. to make sure the patient will think twice before injuring themself again).
Healing Tradeoff (or Healing Sacrifice) - the treatment comes with a damage to the patient or other debilitating side effect. Sometimes it's short-term (using up patient's energy is a common variation), sometimes long-term or permanent. The damage/side effect is likely/certain to occur, but it's still preferable to leaving the patient not treated at all.
Examples would include amputation (when it's due), transplantation (which requires taking immunosuppressants afterwards) or chemotherapy. Ribs damage associated with CPR might also count, because while it doesn't happen all the time, the risk is still there even when procedure is performed correctly.
Harmful Healing Method - applying the treatment method is worse than treating the condition itself, whether the method is successful at alleviating/removing the treated symptoms or not. The key point is that the method itself is inherently harmful, even when performed perfectly. The healer might not know about the harm typical for the treatment method, or they might know about it but don't care.
Examples would include lobotomy, drinking mercury for medical purposes, possibly Worst Aid items.
Healing Gone Wrong - the treatment method might be helpful when performed correctly, but the treatment itself causes more harm than expected. Reasons may vary: performing treatment poorly, lack of crucial information about patient, incorrectly diagnosed condition and so on. Alternatively, the usually helpful treatment becomes harmful under specific circumstances (especially when it comes to automatic healing).
Unlike Harmful Healing Method it applies to single attempts at healing or circumstances affecting the process rather than overall treatment method (though certain Harmful Healing Methods might lead to Healing Gone immediately Wrong). Unlike Healing Tradeoff the damage done goes beyond accepted losses; there may be overlap if a risky procedure results in worse complications than healer accounted for (e.g. CPR-caused lung injury results in the person dying).
Examples include amputating the wrong leg, accidentally replacing heart with potato, giving the patient a medicine they're allergic to etc.
Malicious Healing - healing-like abilities are deliberately used in a harmful manner. This may be an attack from the start, or it may be disguised as an actual treatment. Properly healing someone as a part of malicoius plan doesn't count - the harm must come from the "healing".
Unlike Healing Gone Wrong, the adverse effects are entirely expected and intended. Might apply to abilities with the Healing Tradeoff, if the intent is to inflict the tradeoff damage rather than cure the target.
Examples would include turning people into Body Horror abominations, fusing someone with a stone or killing an undead boss with revival item.
In a nutshell:
Description breakdown
The description of Harmful Healing suggests that its focus is Harmful Healing Method, but there are traces of other categories as well.
The first sentence is most definition-like ("Harmful Healing is..."), and it specifically mentions treatments that cause "more harm than good" (i.e. the cure is worse than the condition). This alone excludes beneficial versions of Healing Suffering and Healing Tradeoff, which - while harsh - are still better than leaving the condition untreated.
This phrasing seems to favour Harmful Healing Method (maybe also Malicious Healing) as opposed to Healing Gone Wrong - it implies the healer might be competent at applying the treatment, but the treatment itself is harmful.
The description suggests that Comically Inept Healing applies when harm is a result of healer's incompetence instead of treatment method. However, judging by description and examples of Comically Inept Healing, it seems to cover instances when someone incompetent suggests/applies incorrect treatments rather than performing them poorly.
Applying the incorrect treatment might lead to Healing Gone Wrong, but often it ends with the characters considering a silly or outlandish cure and receiving proper treatment shortly afterwards. Thus, while there's an overlap I'd consider Comically Inept Healing to be a separate concept from Harmful Healing Method and Healing Gone Wrong and not involve it in repair efforts.
This paragraph - being the first paragraph in the trope - might allude to Healing Suffering interpretation. It implies the treatment being effective, and the "make you wish you were never born" part makes me imagine some unbearable pain rather than becoming some kind of Frankensteinian abomination.
Overall, the description suggests the Harmful Healing trope is about Harmful Healing Methods, maybe also Healing Gone Wrong and Malicious Healing. There are some hints of Healing Suffering, but the most definition-like sentence implies the treatment must be overall more harmful than lack thereof (and this harm is something long-term rather than temporary). Healing Tradeoff interpretation isn't particularly prominent in description.
Usage breakdown
I went through some examples from Harmful Healing page. I assigned them to specific categories, to give a better idea what kinds of entries go into which categories and how the categories differ from one another. The examples were mostly copy-pasted.
Invoked trope.
Invoked trope again.
Overlaps with Healing Gone Wrong.
I don't know Naruto, but I assume both Tsunade and Naruto are aware of the price of their healing methods.
Assuming the aging effect is known and accepted by characters.
Tentative. This depends on whether the problems with the healing method are universally accepted risk - making it more of Healing Tradeoff - or result from applying the treatment improperly.
Is there a policy against examples from unrelated works referencing each other? This "As above" makes it too reliant on example from unrelated entry, I think...
Overlaps with Healing Suffering.
Also, Josuke uses this against Angelo - he uses his healing-like ability to fuse Angelo with stone.
The malicious aspect of the healing ability is repeatedly tearing the victim apart and putting them back together, of course.
I'm not familiar with the work, but it sounds less like healing itself harms the patient and more like someone being healed causing bad consequences further down the road.
Again, the healing itself isn't harmful; it's just used as a setup for the harm to come.
Many examples above focus on beneficial Healing Suffering (e.g. Pearl Jam, Skele-Gro) and acceptable Healing Tradeoff (e.g. Creation Rebirth Seal, Kryptonite). Assuming the Harmful Healing trope was meant as "treatment worse than the condition", it makes these example a misuse of this trope. For that reason alone I believe the Harmful Healing trope needs repairing (either by fixing description or cleaning/rearranging uses).
Proposed actions
The simplest action would be changing description of Harmful Healing to encompass unpleasant/damaging but still preferable treatments (and overall clarify what Harmful Healing is and isn't). Then examples would be mostly kept as-is, with maybe some cleanup along the way.
An alternative/next step would be splitting/subtroping/sistertroping Harmful Healing with more detailed tropes, and progressively moving the examples to the most fitting pages. This probably would require a short-term or long-term project (I don't have enough experience with projects to decide what counts as short-term and long-term).
Proposed new tropes (feel free to suggest better names if you come up with some):
Note: I'd rather keep Malicious Healing out of the Harmful Healing group, because it involves harming people with healing-like abilities, rather than healing/treating these people. E.g. a healing might be based on destruction/reconstruction ability, but it doesn't make each application of this ability an instance of healing.
Also, I think at the very least "necessary evils" of healing (Healing Suffering, Healing Tradeoff) are distinct enough from outright harmful effects to be separated from these.
I'm looking forward to your thoughts. ^^
Edited by Alphish on Jan 3rd 2021 at 8:39:18 AM