My Little Pony: Cleanup Is Magic

Hmm, I'd say the reaction happens mainly in part one, though, since that is also where the betrayal hits the heroes the hardest.

That makes sense. Can the DILP entry be cut then?

Yes. How's this to replace it?

• Misaimed Fandom: Many fans bemoaned Chrysalis, Tirek, and Cozy Glow's punishment of being permanently turned to stone by the heroes as unfair given how many other villains they've Easily Forgiven, especially Discord this episode despite him enabling the villains actions. This overlooks the trio's evildoings^note attempted murder of the heroes, multiple attempts to conquer/destroy the nation and turning good guys against their friends or people being on par or surpassing what the Storm King and Sombra were karmically and uncontroversially killed for and the heroes only so punished them after they made 100% clear they'd refuse any efforts to redeem them and continue attempting such evildoing if given any lesser punishment. Also that the difference was Discord's actions here were genuinely well-intentioned only causing harm due to his overconfidence and Discord risked his own life to fix it and showed genuine remorse for his action in contrast to the villains.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on May 7th 2022 at 9:59:15 AM

Why was the never live down trope deleted?

That reads the same as the DILP entry. I think the point should be that the writers meant for the villains’ punishment to be karmic and deserved, but didn’t come off that way due to issues in the writing (prior episodes giving the villains Pet the Dog moments and seeming to make them sympathetic against “Grogar”, and Discord being responsible for the crimes the villains are declared irredeemable for).

Because NLID is not just most talked about/unfairly exaggerated moments, but moments that go on to unfairly/exaggeratedly define their fanon depictions.

If NLID applied to Discord over it, general fandom portrayal would regularly have him commit similar offenses or call out/have him regret it. But the twist is remembered/contentious because it contradicted the popular fanon portrayals such they rejected/refused to accept/incorporate this new fallibility into their fanon portrayal of him. (This stated even fix/accusation fics don't count as such are niche as opposed to general fan portrayals, which FIM has many examples of I will remove soon.)

In short it's not NLID as while it's effected what fans think of the character in the show, it has not effected what they think of/how they portray them in their fanwork, in fact their rejection of the event from their fanon is the opposite of NLID.

Any objection to replacing the DILP with my Misaimed Fandom example?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on May 8th 2022 at 10:42:41 AM

It should be rewritten to focus more on the dissonance between the writers wanting the villains to seem irredeemable but the viewers not agreeing due to the issues I mentioned above, then it could be good to go.

The YMMV page has this example:

• Despite Discord's Trickster Mentor methods showing the potentially disastrous consequences, it's never brought up that Princess Celestia had been doing the exact same thing all series. Doing so could have better emphasized Twilight's struggle with self-doubt over her accompaniments being staged and give Celestia a bigger role acknowledging her fallibility that would make Twilight worthier of the throne. Or at least given Discord better justification for his poor plan and forgiveness.

There is nothing ever suggesting Twilight Sparkle's adventures were staged. And the only closest example could be Sombra, but even that is a stretch. Sombra escaped from his prison by himself and needed to be recointained. Discord however was the one who freed and manipulated the villains in the first place.

There's speculation that Celestia was the one to release Luna, in which case it's possible she pulled a Batman Gambit on Twilight to make her create the Mane Six, get the elements, and save her sister. But that's never been confirmed in the show as canon.

Wellll.... there's some low key evidence that Celestia could be a trickster mentor, but the show is never quite willing to out and out say it, unlike with Discord. It's ambiguous for Celestia whether or not that was her intention.

The thing with the Crystal Kingdom was definitely set up as a test for Twilight, though. The plot does admit that much, at least.

It is still not the same as Discord's doing. Like i already said, Sombra escaped by himself. While in season nine the trio (plus Sombra) returned only bcuz Discord helped them. Exception could be Chryssalis, but the episode Mean Six demonstrated she could do nothing against the heroes. She was only harming herself.

As the one who added the original entry, my thoughts behind it. The wrongness of Discord's efforts was his mismanagement (leaving the villains to their own devices, lacking contingency) enabling them to become legitimate threats as opposed to the tests intended. It would have caused just as much harm/be just as stupid if he merely took advantage of escaped villains but made all the misstep's he did. Conversely if he did free them but pulled off his plan successful a Celestia's (without more harm than intended) would that not be praised for his successful planning?

Would Celestia not be held accountable for any harm Nightmare Moon and Sombra did that could have been prevented if she acted against them more quickly/directly than sending the heroes? And if they failed? Why was Celestia's similarly poor judgement in "Twilight's Kingdom" which had similarly near-disastrous consequences? Looking at her fallibility S4 onward it seems her prior successes with Discord's methods seem to be luck as opposed to better planning, and if she freed/took advantage of escaped ones was never a part of if they worked out or not.

@Javertshark13: Misaimed Fandom about why the dissonance between how fans see them and they were meant to be seen is unfairly/illogically overlooking their negative traits. If there is legitimate reason for "the dissonance between the writers wanting the villains to seem irredeemable but the viewers not agreeing" it's not MF but what's covered by "Frenemies" Unintentionally Sympathetic entry or "The Ending of the End - Part 2"'s Karmic Overkill.

Could you give a rough draft of what you think the MF entry should look like? Because I'm not getting what you want from it or what you want might fall under something else. Should we just cut DLIP meanwhile?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on May 8th 2022 at 10:28:49 AM

Considering Celestia was immediately dispatched by Nightmare Moon on arrival (implied, at least), I think the implication was that there was nothing she herself could do, which is why she had to enlist Twilight. Also, she could not wield the Elements on her own (also, rather more implied than shown).

Remember that the early series was written more like a fairy tale than a high fantasy with lore and elaborate motivations. Celestia gives Twilight a quest Because The Plot Says So, and Celestia can't fight the monster herself Because The Plot Says So. It is the same reason why the king in fairy tales is always sending the knight to defeat the dragon, instead of going himself (which would frankly not be out of place in a medieval European setting). It's because the king is not the story; the knight is.

Similarly, Celestia can't defeat Nightmare Moon because that's Twilight's role, so Celestia doesn't even get to try.

It's also good to remember that at that point, Celestia is not really a character so much as a quest giver and glorified set dressing. She's a background character to Twilight's adventures. That's also a reason why she never gets to do anything.

I think the reason people have trouble with this is because they expect agency from characters who were never meant to have agency in the first place, because if they did, there wouldn't be a story for the hero left to have.

So is she a trickster mentor in that moment? Yes, she is: she tells Twilight to stop reading so much and make some friends, basically tricking her into finding the solution for wielding the Elements of Harmony. This is a Dumbledore level plan, where Celestia somehow knows this gambit will work out, and the story treats it like the best and only way to do it.

Edited by Redmess on May 8th 2022 at 8:16:33 PM

The DILP entry as it is doesn't make the case that fans are ignoring the villains' crimes just because they didn't like the punishment, so I'll cut that if there's no objection.

The Unintentionally Sympathetic entry for "Frenemies" is more about the villains seeming sympathetic in that specific episode for how "Grogar" was mistreating them and their character development making them appear redeemable. Their treatment in the finale is a separate issue. The Ending of the End Part 1 is where the Grogar twist happens, and that's where it gets contentious that the villains are meant to be unsympathetic despite Discord's role in their crimes. Does that fit for either Misaimed Fandom or US, or does Karmic Overkill already cover that?

Edited by Javertshark13 on May 9th 2022 at 4:58:28 AM

Could DILP fit into Discord? Plenty of fans try to justify Discord's actions and claim he did nothing wrong in season nine. Despite the episode portraying him in the wrong.

There is also another complaint from fans: while Discord gets called out for putting Equestria in danger again, none of the characters seem to be bothered by the fact Discord manipulated and threatened the villains. Is there a name for that?

DILP seems like the opposite reaction to what I've seen. Most fans seem to demonize Discord and portray him as the show's worst villain after what he did, or at least they don't at all support him. I've never seen anyone actually say they do.

And i have seen both reactions. But i do not think it is really demonizing if he already did that in canon, he sees no problem manipulating his friends.

DILP applied early in Discord's redemption when fans did/wanted to overlook his continued antics and manipulations. But starting S8 and fully taking effect the finale they are overall not doing that anymore. It is also not whitewashing but in-show that he was meant to be sympathetic enough despite to redeem himself by the finales end which many fans have not thus is the opposite of DILP. If DILP applies it's due to the show clashing with fans prior idealized image of him. Also DILP is not just fan whitewashing, but a trend of fanworks portraying them such. I've seen such bashing Discord but nothing defending him there.

Update: Asked RTDE/DILP cleanup about the villains example. Will see what they have to say. Moving on for now.

From YMMV.My Little Pony The Movie 2017:

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Queen Novo was the least popular new main character◊ despite being the Big Good. She was meant to be an benevolent queen initially refusing to fight the Storm King due to not wanting to endanger her people or risking her powerful Pearl of Transformation falling into the wrong hands, but would have been persuaded to help fight if not for Twilight attempting to steal the Pearl due to being too quick to lose trust in Novo. But due to them being the first thing to come to Princess Celestia's mind when the Storm King invaded^note it was written before the gained other possible allies in the series, many thought Novo was an ally under expectation or obligation to aid the heroes only to be inexplicably distrustful toward them (The Stormy Road to Canterlot would justify that but it's canonically suspect and not alluded to in The Movie). The Storm King and his army being defeated by thirteen ragtag individuals without the Pearl made Novo and her people look excessively cowardly for running and hiding rather than standing and fighting against such seemingly easy to beat foe. Even many who defend her actions as pragmatically justifiable felt Novo's lack of positive contribution left her and her people (save Princess Skystar who Novo grounded over) having done nothing to deserve their happy ending after abandoning Equestria in its hour of need.

The "and her people look" and "and her people (save Princess Skystar who Novo grounded over)" were removed by BrianKT (who's had problems over UU entries) citing ""And her people" is too much of a negative generalization. Who is the bigger jerk, the jerk, or the jerk that follows?"

While I agree it should be unfair for fans to hold her people in contempt for Novo's inaction, I have seen fans do it (particularly S8 where it was seen as giving Neighsay unintentionally valid reason not to trust them). Is that the case? Or is it not widespread enough to count? Or should it only count after The Movie for what I described?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on May 10th 2022 at 7:04:36 AM

Well no one thinks that discord did nothing wrong in s9. Discord is manipulative and he does take joy in trolling others. Now discord does fit dilp on that, which is why he has a page himself on the mlp dilp page. However it's also shown that he is truly trying to help and stated by other characters to be in his own way. I do think a character can fit both tropes at the same time. In terms of s9 with discord its more of the fact that some such as myself would say that discord's actions came from a place of naivety and arrogance more than truly any evil intent and also as the spirit of chaos, it makes sense.

With his words of being a safety net in part 1 of the finale, it can be implied that he saw himself as if anything goes wrong he can just fix it with the snap of his fingers and he believed in the mane six especially for twilight to win in the end as they always do and he will prove to them they can do anything so its no reason to doubt themselves. He saw it as a video game, not in the sense of doing it for his sick joy but more of because he saw no real danger in his plan at least for his friends and the citizens of eq even if he doesn't care about them as much as the ones close, he also wouldn't want them to die as he tells the mane 5 and spike to save equestria. .

He underestimated the trio and they took his magic becoming probably more powerful than he intended and taking away that safety net. The show itself has the characters criticize him on his risky plan and putting all of Equestria in danger, however the show also doesn't deny that he was trying to help.

Edited by Fresh2000 on May 10th 2022 at 6:52:28 AM

Underestimated? He basically set himself up for defeat from the start, having them getting Grogar's actual magic-stealing bell and all. Not to mention that bell just gave the trio a lot more power. He was completely reckless.

There is also the fact he just let the crystal ponies get brainwashed by Sombra. If he really saw himself as a "safety net" you would think he would not let that happen.

He wasn't shown to know it could take his magic and he believed in twilight's victory, basically discord was being meta, it will get fixed by a rainbow laser or something in the end so no harms done. And he saw himself as a safety net incase it was too much for them but due to his arrogance and naivety that failed. Is it messed up to put them at risk and have them at the hands of villains of not only his friends and eq regardless? yes. but its not the same as actually wanting them to conqueror eq forever at the end or trying to truly harm the mane six as well they will win anyways and believe in themselves to be great rulers in return. His basic thought process. Ironically he was right in a weird roundabout way, as they do win in the finale.

Edited by Fresh2000 on May 11th 2022 at 5:11:49 AM

Sounds like Fan Wank to me.

I mean, that's definitely what Discord thought would be the case. The issue everyone had is that Discord was wrong, and was incredibly negligent in how he handled it.

Plus, I mean, the fact that he even united them and freed them to begin with solely to boost Twilight's confidence when we were never given evidence to believe such a boost was even necessary...

Discord had good intentions. Sure, that's fair to say. The problem is that he was such an idiot the entire time that any excuse of being a "safety net" is simply hard to believe. He'd lost to Tirek once before, after all, so even in ideal scenarios there's no reason to think he'd be able to win again now that Tirek had allies.

Also in Best Gift Ever, while his actions are still questionable, he actually puts an effort to get happy endings for everyone, even including the winterzilla. But in season nine he only thinks about the mane six and outright cruel to everyone else (not only the villains but also the Equestrian citizens). It is like he was swapped by a completely different character.