Wiki and Forum Policy - General Discussion

Gotta agree with Ultimatium. Calling people 'cancer' is wrong, dismissing someone's triggers is wrong, and if you're going to act like it's not wrong, then maybe something's wrong with you.

Seriously, being sick of 'talking around' issues does not give you the right to be an asshole.

Edited by kkhohoho on Feb 15th 2021 at 3:34:01 AM

For the record, this isn't the first time I've seen people take offense with the whole "cancer" lingo. It's kind of an Internet Broken Base. Here's one example of people debating whether it's offensive. There's similar discussions here.

It's kind of like throwing around "rape" playfully - it might be technically accurate in certain contexts (i.e. "rape and pillage"), but often you can tell it's being used in the context of online slang. "They're a cancer" isn't really the same as "They're cancer." It's not really a ridiculous thing to take offense to and frankly I think it's a stupid thing to double down on using the word when there's other words that can capture the same energy - i.e. "they're a bunch of aggravating assholes."

Edited by mightymewtron on Feb 15th 2021 at 4:35:59 AM

So the objection isn't to the word but to the conjugation? Noted for future reference. Apparently my sin is in getting the slang wrong.

I am legit distressed about this, genuinely and sincerely

I am upset.

Edited by Ultimatum on Feb 15th 2021 at 9:38:25 AM

Personally I think your current "sin" is the fact you're acting weirdly callous about somebody suffering a grave disease expressing disdain with your wording. Like the word itself is annoying, but doubling down on it and borderline mocking a cancer victim for being offended is when I start to become genuinely uncomfortable.

Seriously, can another mod weigh in on this?

Edited by mightymewtron on Feb 15th 2021 at 4:38:39 AM

Ask yourself why you identified with shitposting so strongly that a general reference was taken as a personal attack.

You came into the discussion thread and started acting as if we needed to revisit something that was already decided, then you took offense at my characterization of the subject. Now I'm at fault because I didn't anticipate that my choice of words was specifically hurtful to you.

I get it. "Cancer" is on the list of banned words in discourse. I'll pick something else next time.

People around me are asking why I am near tears

I think there's a medium here. A close family member of mine died of cancer a few years ago, and I'm still dealing with it, so I get where Ultimatum is coming from. It's difficult if you've been through it.

That being said, it is also common internet lingo, and I have used the phrase myself quite a bit even recently, so I can also see where Fighteer is coming from, although I think there could have been a less aggressive response.

The words HURT me because I am cancer survivor

Oh no I get that. It was really rough for me when it happened as well, and as I said there could have been a less aggressive response.

I'm just trying to see both sides here. I could see why Fighteer would use the term, and I could also see how it hurts you. It's a difficult situation, I don't even really know the answer.

I think it's disingenuous to claim that Ultimatum's stance is entirely based on disagreeing with the shitposting point. I don't agree with the shitposting point and I also don't agree with the wording of "cancer." I casually pointed out how I didn't like it in the Yack Fest thread but I wasn't going to pursue the issue until Fighteer's response actually offended me even more.

I know why Fighteer would throw the term around — it's a term rooted in Internet culture and most people don't think a lot about meme language.^note Not sure if that's an excuse though, because "This gave me autism" is also meme language. There's a lot of trash in meme language that I don't even really want to repeat. However, why is it so hard to just acknowledge why somebody would be upset instead of being like "Yeah but you're defending shitposting and that's the real crime here"? It's very obvious their concern in this case is about, you know, the thing that would affect them significantly more in real life than a fucking forum thread.

Edited by mightymewtron on Feb 15th 2021 at 4:46:02 AM

Each user of TV Tropes is presumed to be responsible for their own emotional and mental well-being and to be capable of coping with natural discourse and conversation. Being intentionally hurtful is obviously unacceptable but using general slang terms and causing accidental offense is not something that can be regulated.

Call me an SJW, but calling people "cancer" or "cancerous" for behaving in ways you disapprove of seems... kinda obviously insensitive?

The problem is with you, then, because shitposting is cancer.

Wasn't that kind of intentionally hurtful? Not in itself suspend-worthy or anything but still...it was a derogatory remark directed at somebody else. (Especially given that the thread wasn't even really agreeing on what "shitposting" meant, as it has a different connotation among different internet generations anyway.)

Yeah I was going to say the "cancer" thing and the defense of it was borderline chan^note anybody stalking these forums is probably loving this whole disaster, BTW, but didn't know for sure if that was too far.

Edited by mightymewtron on Feb 15th 2021 at 4:50:25 AM

Like I said, I do think the intent was to use it to call them "cancerous", not "cancer" in the meme way. But while I do think intent should be taken into consideration, the response to the issue doesn't help anything either.

The "cancerous" definition itself seems a little harsh, but makes sense in the context of the discussion.

Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 15th 2021 at 4:49:09 AM

As someone who used to casually fling the word "cancer" at people back in my Imageboard days it's a thing I've been personally trying to cut down on the usage of as an Old Shame for a while now, for the reasons Ultimatum and others have given above (that and it's visible "chanspeak", a kind of jargon that signposts the user as highly immature outside of likeminded company). We can easily do better than that, and it's not like we'd even have to work hard to fix that. Just tacking an "a" in front or adding "-ous" to the end of it significantly diminishes the harm it does. There's no reason to double down on this. We aren't even asking for much.

At the least, telling someone who is genuinely hurt that they're being overly sensitive is not the best. You don't have to stop using it ever, and I admit that when I'm with certain friends I lapse into the old slang, but surely it can't be that hard to at least stop using certain phrasings in the presence of any person who has clear and stated triggers.

And Ultimatum, I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you are doing better these days.

Edited by AlleyOop on Feb 15th 2021 at 4:56:17 AM

Yeah,I get that

I'm doing great thanks!My feelings aren't thick as I thought it was.

Edited by Ultimatum on Feb 15th 2021 at 9:50:59 AM

One thing I'll suggest is to get off the site and calm down for a bit if things like this happen. I'm not saying you're wrong to feel hurt, just that giving yourself some time to cool down can do wonders in all manner of internet drama.

No,it's fine,I am fine

This is one off where my scales had a weak point,no matter,I'll be stronger promise

I'll just say this: if you've been through a family member dying of cancer, especially if you are struggling with mental illness, it is absolute misery. As time goes on it slowly gets easier, but it never really goes away. I don't know what it is like for a cancer survivor, but this was just my experience.

I can definitely see why Ultimatum would be upset, but I can also see why Fighteer would be confused about why the word is seen as offensive, given the word's popularity and how common it is in internet slang. Actually, I've seen much worse cancer metaphors than what Fighteer has said.

I don't even really know the solution. I'm just adding my own experiences if that does anything.

I've never been on an imageboard in my life. The word has leaked into common slang. Personal offense was not intended, but the point that a person who thinks shitposting is acceptable is not someone we want participating in our forums was absolutely intended. We've banned quite a few shitposters and I'm happy to add more to the pile.

It appears that the actual miscommunication lies in the definition of that term, which is why I clarified it in a follow-up post.

I also don't appreciate being counter-shamed for offense that I could not possibly have anticipated. I've been through traumatic experiences - I spent weeks in the hospital for pneumonia a while ago. For a while, every time I coughed or was short of breath I had a panic attack. I didn't burst into tears when someone said the word "pneumonia", though.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 15th 2021 at 4:57:43 AM

Just take the L and say sorry for hurting someone's feelings. You're not less of a man for doing so.

The shitposting discussion is a separate discussion and not one I even disagree with, merely the insensitivity of the word choice. I think most of the people in this conversation are of that mindset.

And it's a sign of bad faith to insinuate that being bothered by the use of the word "cancer" necessarily also means that one approves of shitposting (I very much don't).

Anyway, "well, I didn't get triggered over a similar experience so I shouldn't have to care (with the implication that others who are, are just weak)" is not a good excuse. This is exactly what PTSD survivors talk about when they complain about victim blaming. Stop Digging Yourself Deeper by doing this.

Edited by AlleyOop on Feb 15th 2021 at 5:01:49 AM

Shit happens,I guess?

In any case I am calming downm,slowly

Edited by Ultimatum on Feb 15th 2021 at 9:58:36 AM

I was not shaming you. I was just trying to illustrate why someone would be offended by that, even unintentionally, using my own personal experience. I don't hold anything against you. I was just trying to help in any way I could.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Feb 15th 2021 at 4:57:59 AM

Whether "cancer" is offensive isn't my main concern with this situation. It's the fact that when presented with the possibility, Fighteer acted really condescended and acted like it was ridiculous for a cancer victim to even find the wording offensive. He also kept acting like the point of offense was about being mean to shitposters when it's pretty clearly not, at least not in this particular debate.

EDIT: And now you're doing the whole "well I went through trauma and I didn't complain" thing which is pretty obnoxious as well. Also, "I didn't burst into tears when someone said the word "pneumonia", though." is a false equivalency. "Pneumonia" doesn't have the same connotations as "cancer" (that argument works both for and against your point) and the issue wasn't "saying the word cancer is bad" but "throwing it around casually was bad."

Again, I don't know if I care about "cancer" as slang, but treating Ultimatum like they're utterly spineless for speaking up about immature moderator conduct is just making you, frankly, look more immature.

Edited by mightymewtron on Feb 15th 2021 at 5:01:07 AM