Asshole Victim Cleanup

Since when it had to be completely? Look at the first straight example in the Playing With page.

Then that's misuse since the main page states it involves "the writers [to] arrange for the villain to die in a manner that is completely his own fault."

"example in the Playing With page"

Trope subpages never count to determine trope scope, go by the description only.

The whole point of Karmic Death is to absolve the heroes of any responsibility or role in the villain's death to keep the good guys "good". If the heroes have played enough of a role that the audience can point to it and say that the death couldn't have occurred without it, then it cannot be Karmic Death.

Edited to add: From what's been said, you might be looking more at Beat Them at Their Own Game, since the significant act seems to be about scamming the scammers, which creates the situation in which the villains can get themselves killed.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Dec 25th 2022 at 2:47:07 AM

Does this apply to non-deaths? For this case, someone got fired for abusing his admin powers:

• Asshole Victim: It's hard to feel bad for Girori when he gets fired unceremoniously by Niram. Needless to say, it was poetic justice for abusing his authority as the Game Master and for using Win as a suicide bomber.

Edited by Kindle4Light on Dec 26th 2022 at 12:20:09 AM

(x3) Plus, they can have misuse.

Yeah, Asshole Victim can include non-deaths.

Funnily enough, even the main page doesn't make it clear if the asshole has to not be responsible for their fate or not, as per this paragraph:

Edited by PlasmaPower on Jan 14th 2023 at 8:14:52 AM

The "must not be responsible" part was dropped after the TRS discussion, IIRC.

So you guys basically turned this trope into a PSOC? It's now just "bad things happen to bad people and that's awesome"

Edited by PlasmaPower on Jan 14th 2023 at 8:31:28 AM

...No?

It's a supertrope now, incorporating all manner of "the asshole who suffers a bad fate". This includes things like Karmic Death, Who Murdered the Asshole, and Pay Evil unto Evil, among others. It's not PSOC because it's something creators do deliberately, to have stakes and death without dealing with making the audience care about the character first.

(x4) If this is about me disagreeing with you, honestly that was several days ago so I don't see why you're bringing it up now. As for that part of the paragraph, I never said that the character has to be directly responsible for their fate.

My question regarding the human antagonists from Jurassic Park media franchise?

When I was reading through all the characters from the Jurassic Park characters trope page, why the villains like Dr. Lewis Dodgson, Eli Mills, Ken Wheatley, and Kash D. Langford do not have Asshole Victim in their own character folders? Yet other villains such as Dennis Nedry, Peter Ludlow, Dieter Stark, Vic Hoskins, Eddie(Not referring to that "Eddie Carr" who shares the same name), Donald Gennaro, Gunnar Eversoll, Mitchell, Tiffany, Hawkes, Jack, Sub Pilot, Reed, Dr. Laura Sorkin, and Miles Chadwick do have Asshole Victim in their own character folders?

I acknowledge its true that all the Jurassic Park antagonists deserved their karmic fates at the hands of the dinosaurs without a doubt, however I’m confused why the four villains in particular as I have mentioned above don’t have Asshole Victim in their own character folders where they used to while the rest of the villains do have it? Seems quite inconvenient as it sounds but I just like to know why? I’m not talking about the trope’s misuse, just simply curious, any reason if you don't mind me asking?

Side note: I guess Daniel Kon, Ajay Sidhu, Dr. Robert Burke, Carter, Brutish Mercenary, Dawson, and Billy Yoder are the exceptions(in case of the former who is only arrested), as these types of villains don’t really feel like Asshole Victims to begin with, so it makes sense and understandable for them not having one. Meanwhile Dr. Henry Wu gets to redeemed himself and live in a good way.

Edited by YatasumujiSenpai on Feb 27th 2023 at 6:49:00 AM

In regards to Nagito from Danganronpa 2: Goodbye Despair... I found this on his page.

• Asshole Victim: Everyone is at first horrified by Nagito's murder, but after discovering he planned his own death and the killer was completely unwitting, the class can only feel disgust and outrage towards him.

If an AV kills themselves in a Rube Goldberg type gambit, they probably don't count as this trope. Plus Komaeda is played for Sympathy later on due to his warped view on humanity. Plus, he's already listed under Karmic Death which I feel fits him better even if he planned the whole thing.

Edited by Klavice on Jan 15th 2023 at 3:25:40 AM

If he's under Karmic Death then the Asshole Victim example needs to be cut, since KD is the subtrope.

Can someone be a Karmic Death if it's effectively a premeditated suicide?

Edited by Amonimus on Jan 15th 2023 at 2:36:04 PM

Never mind, it wasn't Karmic Death, it was another AV death subtrope he's listed under, let me see if I can find it. Edit: It's this one: Who Murdered the Asshole.

Edited by Klavice on Jan 15th 2023 at 3:31:02 AM

I don't see him listed with Who Murdered the Asshole, but it would fit since Case 2.5 is about identifying the Jerkass's killer.

Edited by Amonimus on Jan 15th 2023 at 2:36:20 PM

(x3) I don't think so because the main page doesn't describe it as a self-inflicted death, though I could be wrong.

Nagito's death is a bit complicated in the case of Karmic Death. He IS a jerkass but he's pet as many dogs as he's kicked, helping Hajime and Chiaki Nanami solve mysteries for instance when it benefits him only so he won't die. The death itself? The wounds are self inflicted and he set it up, HOWEVER, the traitor AI!Nanami dealt the killing blow with poisonous gas, which triggered a spear through his heart using a fire Grenade filled with the gas though unwittingly. And Nagito unknowingly almost gave Junko 15 new bodies to use as Minions as they were already members of the fanatical cult, the Ultimate Despair and the dead characters are Not Quite Dead. Monokuma sees it as the traitor is the killer even though they had no idea they did it.

Edited by Klavice on Jan 15th 2023 at 9:20:09 AM

tl;tr it was Suicide by Cop and Taking You with Me, but I wouldn't call it karmic.

Kudos for that. Yeah it amounts to Suicide by Cop like Ryoma's death in V3 but due to Nagito being the morally ambiguous Rival character the series is known for, it isn't Karmic even if he had it coming.

I think that simply being a 'victim' does not mean they have to die. The victim could very well be alive, but still a victim

Someone added Karmic Transformation to the list of sub-tropes. However, I didn't see any consensus about this (there was no edit reason, for the record). Do you all think the addition to the list is fine? For the record, I think it is.

I removed the Milverton entry Elementary S 01 E 20 Dead Mans Switch, due to being an example of Subtrope Who Murdered the Asshole. Is this okay?

Yep. If fitting subtropes exist, then entries should be placed there instead of their supertropes.

Edited by badtothebaritone on May 7th 2023 at 4:38:56 AM