Asshole Victim Cleanup

So, about my understanding of the Asshole Victim trope, I thought it was when someone dies or suffers a misfortune and it wasn't in response to what they did (in this case, Tomoo dies because of his own actions). I already took care of removing the hidden comment from Characters.Elfen Lied, for what it's worth.

Yeah, that originally was the case. However, that's no longer part of the trope.

Thanks for your understanding, though.

It's actually debatable if that was ever a requirement because the description made it extremely ambiguous. But it's moot since it's been fixed anyway.

Yeah, I guess so on second thought. Thanks for correcting me.

Oh, no worries. I helped launch the TRS thread on that assumption, until a second reading made me realize just how inconsistent it was.

Bringing up this example from Game of Thrones - Cersei Lannister:

We REALLY need to edit the trope page to say it's okay if their fate was brought upon them in terms of like characters that were huge assholes before they died as the trope definition has expanded. I wonder if it would apply to characters who are killed by bigger assholes like Juan Corrida and Matt Engarde. Laser-Guided Karma is also a subtrope, so I'm assuming if we really don't want to change anything we can just add that to LGK though I think that I'd for anti heroes and morally GOOD characters that receive punishment. Regardless I think that also needs TRS.

Edited by Klavice on Jun 22nd 2022 at 12:52:53 PM

Ok, I'll keep it.

For what it's worth, I brought that example up to the "Is this an example?" page for further feedback.

Yeah some characters that deserve their fate may fit better under Who Murdered the Asshole or Karmic Death for villains. Aside from that, yeah I could see most subtropes covering 90% of current examples. Like we might as well convert the AssholeVictim.Ace Attorney page to a WhoMurderedTheAsshole.Ace Attorney page.

That sounds like a good idea to me.

Was about to crosswick an example from Nope to the Asshole Victim page but saw the notice, so I decided to bring it here to see if it's a legit example just in case.

That seems to fall more under Karmic Death, if you ask me.

If the hero kills an incapacitated villain then they’re defeated and could be spared, is that considered this trope

I think so, though it depends on the baddie's character and if they qualify for any of AH's sub-tropes.

Hey, in the Playing With page, the Played Straight seems to say that because the victim was a bit of an ass and a Jerk Jock that somehow means it's okay that he gets his life fucking threatened. It also seems to say that nobody actually cared for his safety.

I don't know about you, but that seems like a bit much.

I checked, and I think the "threatening to kill him..." part should be scrapped.

Honestly, this trope, along with the Karmic Death trope, is the hardest to properly differentiate, mostly because both revolve around the character, who is hated by the audience, dying to give the audience satisfaction. Personally, there is a few ways to fix this. One would be making it so that the "victim" is killed by an outside factor, rather than the protagonist or by their own actions, such as a car crash or an experiment. Karmic Death would be for when the protag, or another heroic character, directly kills the villain, or at least a character who was tortured by the villain. Another, though more extreme, method would be merging the two together since both share the same purpose of a character getting something bad to happen to them. Other than that, the best defining feature of Asshole Victim is that it should feel like, if it were to happen to any other character, it'd come off as tragic, but for the asshole, it feels somewhat cathartic, and fewer tears are shed.

The character doesn't need to be hated by the audience for either nor does it involve them dying exclusively to give the audience satisfaction. Plus, unlike Karmic Death, Asshole Victim doesn't require the character to die.

As for the rest of what you said, maybe see TRS about it. EDIT: Also, I don't think cleanup threads are supposed to handle new suggestions for the trope and/or one of its sub-tropes.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on Dec 15th 2023 at 6:42:42 AM

Funny you mention that, Asshole Victim literally just went through TRS, which is why it's now a supertrope.

I'm aware, though. For the record, I was just suggesting TRS if wants to suggest any more ideas for AV and Karmic Death.

I have problems understanding this example from the Asshole Victim Main page:

• Fairy Tales
  • Esben and the Witch has Sir Red, who tries repeatedly to get Esben's brothers executed by lying that they told him they could fetch a wonderful or magical item (a dove with feathers of gold, a boar with bristles of silver and gold, a lamp that shines brightly enough to light seven kingdoms, a coverlet that is the most beautiful in the world, and if touched, sounds loudly enough to be heard in eight kingdoms). Sir Red is Hanged in the end, "for his wickedness... and so he got the end he deserved." The brothers are assholes, but not victims, while the witch's daughters are guilty of nothing more than being her daughters.

The last part is unneccesary, but why Sir Red an Asshole Victim?

Edited by SoyValdo7 on Oct 30th 2022 at 8:04:19 AM

I meant in the sense that I doubt a second TRS would go through this quickly after the first.

I'm wondering what's the point of AV if we have Laser-Guided Karma and Karmic Death which are essentially the same trope only AV and LGK doesn't necessarily involve dying. Chances are, if the character is an AV, they had their death coming. It's just a matter of do we just keep AV as an unintentional version of Karmic Death where say a Shrinking Violet kills their bully but not because of their abuse but because He Knows Too Much?

I agree the last part is unneeded. However, I still feel the example counts because Sir Red was hung and he tried to some people repeatedly to try to get them executed. Granted, I haven't read the story. (For the record, the link doesn't work now.)

Honestly again, I don't think this thread is the place for stuff like that, so I'd go to TRS for it.