Values Dissonance/Resonance Cleanup

It makes sense within the context of the show: the characters are all clones / parodies of historical figures, and the popular conception of the historical Cleopatra is that she's a famous seductress, therefore the clone Cleopatra is the school sexpot. It's the same logic that makes JFK the Big Man on Campus, because the historical JFK has a reputation for being a womanizer. It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with (The Theme Park Version of) the historical figures they're based on.

In any case, we all seem to be agreed that it's Not an Example.

From YMMV.COPS

• Values Dissonance: The show was always a product of the late '80s War on Drugs era in which it was created by oversampling drug crimes relative to their real life occurrences. Drug crimes accounted for a little over 10% of arrests throughout its early years but the show's arrests were about one-third drug crimes. It also oversampled the arrests of black and Latino men for these low level crimes, even though white people do drugs at the same rates. This wasn't so much of a problem for about the first half of the show's run throughout the Bush Sr., Clinton, and first half of the Bush Jr. administrations as they all were very much focused on the "tough on crime" mentalities. However by the second half of the Bush Jr. administration and throughout the entirety of the Obama administration, both the federal government and the public at large began to realize how disastrous the war on drugs was and opinion shifted from thinking that low level drug criminals were bad guys who needed to be put away for the good of society to thinking that they were sick/down on their luck people who needed empathy and treatment and that they weren't hurting anyone else. Arrests for drug crimes have gone down every year since 2006 but the show actually started having more drug crimes at that point and kept arresting black and Latino men at disproportionate rates as well. It just kept assuming people felt the same way they did about these victimless crimes as they did in 1989 and was part of the reason it was eventually cancelled in 2020 (as well as the push for the media to end glamourizing police brutality in the wake of the death of George Floyd).

I mean, Jesus.

It seems like a valid entry (especially since it was actually affected by changing mainstream social values), but could be written to be less of a Wall of Text.

I'll bring this one to the Wall of Text thread.

Found this on Whatever Happened To Baby Jane:

• At the beginning of the film, they sell dolls based on Baby Jane and stress that they are "exact replicas." A doll modeled on a real life little girl would have been innocent enough at the time — dolls and toys based on child and adult actresses were completely normal and Effanbee made "Look-A-Like" portrait dolls based on real children^note look up Loraine Burdick's Child Star Dolls and Toys, and Adult Star Dolls and Toys collectors' guides with many pictures — but takes on far more sinister and creepy overtones today. (This is a big YMMV, as many children still love dolls that look like celebrity children — or like themselves. Today, American Girl makes "Truly Me" dolls. My Twinn was developed by an emergency room doctor to help young patients regain confidence. Portrait dolls are a cottage industry on Etsy.)

Aside from the fact that I don’t understand what the “dissonance” here is, the latter half of the example contradicts the former. I’d cut it.

Edited by jandn2014 on Nov 4th 2020 at 6:32:05 AM

...Are they suggesting selling dolls that look like children to children is inherently pedophilic?

Which is even stupider because Barbie still does that all the damn time.

Edited by mightymewtron on Nov 4th 2020 at 7:37:34 AM

Sounds to me more like "it's creepy to make dolls inspired by real people".

This is on Pocahontas:

• Values Dissonance: How you view the Powhatans choosing to execute John as punishment for Kocoum's murder depends a lot on your attitude towards the death penalty. In areas where it's legal, Chief Powhatan might be seen as legally justified to do so. The film however presents it as a potential Moral Event Horizon for him - although Pocahontas's argument against it is less about the legality and more what will happen after he does it.

• Values Resonance: Not just the racial issues, but the fact that in the end, Pocahontas is single and complete without a man, Bittersweet Ending though it is.

YMMV.The Dover Boys

• Values Dissonance: Dan Backslide's first scene not only has him smoking like a chimney, but also downing 15 shots in rapid succession. Yep, it was made in the 40s alright.

???

I think the idea is that it was made at a time when drinking heavily and smoking weren't as frowned upon as they are now.

This entry dosen't do a good job of explaining that though, it's just: "villain smokes and drinks and that's wrong today."

YMMV.Blazing Saddles

• Values Resonance: With racial tensions back at the forefront of socio-political discussions in the 2010s, the film's hilarious, unambiguously negative depiction of racism, bigotry, and prejudice in general have became more necessary to hear (and laugh at) than ever.

Me feels this is a stretch. Wasn't racism considered bad in the 70's when this film was made? It also kind of acts like racism wasn't a thing until the 2010s happened.

I think that can work if expanded upon. "Blazing Saddles couldn't be made today" is a huge argument. I'm not familiar with the movie, though (besides it being so edgy), so I can't really vouch for that argument.

Oh, wait, I'm an idiot, I read it as a Dissonance entry. Yeah, it needs way more context if it wants to argue that its points about racism resonate more now today, especially since that's a contentious argument.

Edited by mightymewtron on Nov 7th 2020 at 1:44:59 PM

I think I made the wrong argument against that entry. I think what I want to say is, this entry acts like racism was suddenly acceptable all over again in the 2000s.

YMMV.Frosty The Snowman

• Values Dissonance: Anti-smoking groups these days would go nuts over Frosty's corncob pipe, especially considering the children built him with one.

...Has anybody complained about Frosty's pipe? Ever?

Show me one person who gives a shit about Frosty's pipe and I will accept that there might be a second somewhere out there. Show me three or more, and I will accept that there might be a case for Values Dissonance.

But considering that I haven't even seen one, cut that shit.

If anything you'd think the bigger issue would be that Frosty travels with a little kid who ditches school to hang out with him, and then he abandons her on a roof at the end. But the pipe is such a minor, irrelevant detail.

Just googled terms like "frosty pipe controversy" and absolutely nothing came up condemning Frosty for smoking, not even a manufactroversy clickbait article (though I did find some tweets about the kids not wearing proper outerwear but that doesn't fit VD either).

Edited by mightymewtron on Nov 8th 2020 at 5:12:52 AM

This is on Cheers:

• In Season 9's "Uncle Sam Wants You," Sam decides he wants a baby. He propositions a woman, who is offended he asks her to be his "breeder," an "incubator" for his child. Not such a big deal later on, with celebrities such as Ricky Martin and Sarah Jessica Parker having children via surrogate.

Sounds like the joke is the horrible way he propositioned a stranger, not the idea of surrogate motherhood in general. Maybe the example is valid if it's mocking surrogate motherhood and not just making Sam the butt of the joke, but it's not very clear.

Edited by mightymewtron on Nov 10th 2020 at 3:47:10 PM

Found this on Calvin And Hobbes:

• In one strip, Calvin asks Hobbes if he'd like to go to the zoo with him and Mom, and he responds with "Can we tour a prison afterwards?", resulting in Calvin changing his mind about going. While the "zoos are prisons" mindset may have been partially true when the strip was first published, most mainstream zoos in recent years (at least in North America) have been putting a heavy focus on conservation and education over entertainment, making it extremely unfair to call them prisons.

Zoos were definitely worse (and more jail-like) in the past, even in the 80's and 90's, so there is some credit to that example, but I think Hobbes detests the concept of zoos because he has an established disdain for human nature and captivity. Also, some people still disapprove of zoos as a concept even with all those upgrades. So I'm a bit torn.

I'm inclined to say that's not an example of Values Dissonance.

YMMV.Forrest Gump: Basically a "see this other item" ZCE, but I'm not even sure that item would count.

• Values Dissonance: See Accidental Aesop above.
  • Arguably the entire film comes off as a sort of Baby Boomer celebration of avoiding such evils as sex or drugs or showing independence and the general intelligence to merely make one's own decisions (even if they backfire). And that's before you bring gender into it.

And here's the Accidental Aesop section, which doesn't explain how these implications were more accepted in the 1990's.

• Accidental Aesop: Follow the rules without ever questioning them and you'll be fine, protest and try to change things and your life will be miserable and short.
  • Become a hippy, experiment with free love, music and drugs, have kids outside of marriage, or - shit - just be born female, and you'll end up dying horribly young after a frankly torrid life. Kids, it pays to be a square! And as sure as shit ain't sugar, it pays to be a male who doesn't think for himself.
  • Intelligence, attending college or general application of your booksmarts has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with the qualities required to become an American hero in several contexts.

This seems like a way to get around the citation requirement in Unfortunate Implications...though I'm sure you could find a source for it as there's been talks about it being problematic for a while now. Here's one. (A previous UI entry was cut for citing Cracked.)

The Cracked thing was cut three years ago. I'm just saying there have been legitimate criticisms of the movie and maybe these better belong on UI with a citation that isn't a joke site, because these don't really explain how values were different in the 1990's.

Edited by mightymewtron on Nov 15th 2020 at 2:19:39 PM

Cracked is not a valid source. Their a parody site which frequently exaggerates or lies bout stuff so it's hard to say what they meant is actually meant to be pointing out actual implications or just a joke.