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This is a thread to discuss those Administrivia pages in need of a little updating- you know the ones. The ones that still cite rules we've long since changed, or the ones that don't properly cite our current standards. Some of them are even scattered in Main/!

So, this is the place to take those pages and fix them up with the help of the community.

For a list of current projects, see Outdated Pages.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 21st 2020 at 8:29:04 AM

WarJay77 Ugly N' Weak from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Ugly N' Weak
Aug 6th 2019 at 2:52:10 AM

This is a thread to discuss those Administrivia pages in need of a little updating- you know the ones. The ones that still cite rules we've long since changed, or the ones that don't properly cite our current standards. Some of them are even scattered in Main/!

So, this is the place to take those pages and fix them up with the help of the community.

For a list of current projects, see Outdated Pages.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 21st 2020 at 8:29:04 AM

We didn't start the drama, it was always goin' since this site's been rollin' ~
Piterpicher from Poland, for real Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
Aug 6th 2019 at 3:14:41 AM

Wiki Magic seems like something that could be rewritten altogether due to new standards. Here's my attempt, feedback welcome:


The process by which, in a few hours, a weak page can be turned into a valid entry with enough examples to satisfy those who petitioned for its deletion.

On TV Tropes, this is rarely needed for tropes created after 2017 since they have to pass through TLP and get approval from five tropers in the form of hats and spend at least three days before being launched or discarded if they turn out to be bad ideas or duplicates (see TLP Guidelines). That said, several poor tropes that didn't use TLP before 2017 (then called YKTTW) are pulled into the Trope Repair Shop for improvement, major changes or even deletion.

Work pages, however, are a different story. Many people make pages on works when they aren't experienced and can make quite a few different mistakes such as less than three trope examples with context, Auto-Erotic Troping, etc. Since they don't have restrictions that require peer review, there can be many problematic work pages in need of help. With a little assistance, though, even stubs may reach Trope Overdosed status.

If you're a kind soul who's looking to give out a little Wiki Magic, go over to Needs Wiki Magic Love or one of its sub-indexes for a list of pages currently in need of Magic.

Edited by Piterpicher on Aug 6th 2019 at 7:20:50 PM

It's the final year of school (then I plan to take a gap year) and exams are looking on the horizon, so I may not be as active.
Aug 6th 2019 at 9:33:25 AM

I think there should be more neutral language about the capability of tropers to create a proper work page. Starting from the second paragraph, how about:

This is rarer for tropes created after 2017 than it is for work pages because they must launch through TLP (formerly YKTTW), essentially peer review for potential tropes. (See TLP Guidelines for more information on the proper procedure of introducing a trope.) Work pages have no such restriction and thus can be created by anyone. While they help the wiki grow, these pages might need improvement in a number of ways, such as proper indentation, context, and alphabetization. Together, editors can work the Wiki Magic, and with a little assistance, what once began as a stub may reach Trope Overdosed status.

If you're a kind soul who's looking to give out a little Wiki Magic, go over to Needs Wiki Magic Love or one of its sub-indexes for a list of pages currently in need of Magic.

Piterpicher from Poland, for real Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
Aug 6th 2019 at 9:59:58 AM

Yeah, I like the concise wording in that more.

Edited by Piterpicher on Nov 22nd 2019 at 9:39:40 PM

It's the final year of school (then I plan to take a gap year) and exams are looking on the horizon, so I may not be as active.
WarJay77 Ugly N' Weak from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Ugly N' Weak
Aug 6th 2019 at 10:56:02 AM

Wiki Magic rewrite looks okay to me.

We didn't start the drama, it was always goin' since this site's been rollin' ~
Piterpicher from Poland, for real Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
Aug 7th 2019 at 11:40:37 AM

Replaced Wiki Magic with rewrite. I'll think about how to improve Administrivia.Zero Context Example when I have the time.

It's the final year of school (then I plan to take a gap year) and exams are looking on the horizon, so I may not be as active.
WarJay77 Ugly N' Weak from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Ugly N' Weak
Aug 7th 2019 at 11:42:58 AM

As mentioned in ATT, Creating New Redirects is out of date as well because it claims main redirects can just... be created, in main, with no trip to the fora.

As for the ZCE page, that's one thing I feel we need discussion on, especially since it's locked. We may need a mod to agree with changing it.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 7th 2019 at 2:43:26 PM

We didn't start the drama, it was always goin' since this site's been rollin' ~
WarJay77 Ugly N' Weak from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Ugly N' Weak
Aug 8th 2019 at 11:52:09 AM

And now there's been an instance of Administrivia pages and Mod statements contradicting each other, as discussed here in regards to TLP Bump.

We didn't start the drama, it was always goin' since this site's been rollin' ~
Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Short-Term Projects herald
Aug 9th 2019 at 6:23:00 AM

I really need to rewrite the rhetorical questions section on Word Cruft to eliminate rudeness, since it presents a Viewers Are Morons attitude.

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Lost in Space
Aug 9th 2019 at 8:14:37 AM

I feel like I shouldn't have to point out that the "rhetorical questions" wording is entirely intentional on the part of its writer, Fast Eddie.

I think that more instructional articles would be read and understood if they directly insulted any reader who doesn't grasp them.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aug 9th 2019 at 10:15:50 AM

Honestly, it feels like a failure of economical writing (and not a self-demonstrating one).

WarJay77 Ugly N' Weak from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Ugly N' Weak
Aug 9th 2019 at 11:24:22 AM

Eh, I can see the issue on Word Cruft, but at least it's not giving any false or outdated information.

We didn't start the drama, it was always goin' since this site's been rollin' ~
Aug 11th 2019 at 8:31:45 AM

I've been thinking, isn't the term Zero-Context Example somewhat misleading? If a trope has multiple aspects to it, giving proper context means explaining how all of those aspects apply. If the example does give proper context to some aspects, but not others (for example, explaining why an Asshole Victim is an Asshole, but not why they're a Victim), it's technically not Zero-Context, but would still be considered a ZCE.

Wouldn't something like "Incomplete-Context Example" be a more accurate name?

WarJay77 Ugly N' Weak from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Ugly N' Weak
Aug 11th 2019 at 10:28:06 AM

[up] Yeah, I've been using "Partially-Contextual Example" myself for those cases.

We didn't start the drama, it was always goin' since this site's been rollin' ~
WarJay77 Ugly N' Weak from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Ugly N' Weak
Aug 16th 2019 at 8:02:09 PM

Five P is also outdated, as not everyone on the P5 can be considered "active" anymore...

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 16th 2019 at 11:02:23 AM

We didn't start the drama, it was always goin' since this site's been rollin' ~
WarJay77 Ugly N' Weak from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Ugly N' Weak
Aug 20th 2019 at 10:41:03 PM

I'm making a possible rewrite of the ZCE page. Excuse any potential errors-I'm on mobile.

We didn't start the drama, it was always goin' since this site's been rollin' ~
WarJay77 Ugly N' Weak from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Ugly N' Weak
Aug 21st 2019 at 12:12:58 AM We didn't start the drama, it was always goin' since this site's been rollin' ~
Piterpicher from Poland, for real Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
Aug 21st 2019 at 7:25:15 AM

It's a fairly good rewrite, though mention that just adding an adjective or several doesn't count as context as well, based on the responses to my post.

It's the final year of school (then I plan to take a gap year) and exams are looking on the horizon, so I may not be as active.
WarJay77 Ugly N' Weak from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Ugly N' Weak
Aug 21st 2019 at 10:49:17 AM

[up] Aye aye ~

We didn't start the drama, it was always goin' since this site's been rollin' ~
Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Short-Term Projects herald
Aug 21st 2019 at 2:14:08 PM

I rewrote some bits and pieces of the ZCE draft, namely to reference further pages (including a "see also" section at the bottom), increase clarity, and a few other things.

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!
WarJay77 Ugly N' Weak from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Ugly N' Weak
Aug 21st 2019 at 3:44:11 PM

[up][awesome]

We didn't start the drama, it was always goin' since this site's been rollin' ~
Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Short-Term Projects herald
Aug 21st 2019 at 5:02:36 PM

Thank you for that. I went ahead and expanded the section on commenting out ZCEs and added headers to some of the sections for ease of viewing.

A few notes:

  • I ordered the "See also" section based on importance to the page itself, rather than alphabetization.
  • Is Not Self-Explanatory redundant to this page? I worry that it is...
  • Is there anything on the current Zero-Context Example page that isn't currently on the Sandbox that should be added?

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!
Aug 21st 2019 at 5:05:39 PM

Perhaps a mention of Type Labels Are Not Examples. We could also give examples of each type of ZCE, and an example of how they could be rewritten to give enough context.

WarJay77 Ugly N' Weak from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Ugly N' Weak
Aug 21st 2019 at 5:07:49 PM

[up][up] Yeah, Not Self Explanitory does seem a bit redundant...

[up] Examples would definitely help.

We didn't start the drama, it was always goin' since this site's been rollin' ~
Aug 21st 2019 at 6:34:46 PM

I really like the ZCE rewrite! A couple of suggested additions to "common ways ZCE can manifest":

  • Examples that say when the trope happens but not what happens. While the "when" is nice information to have, the "what" is absolutely necessary. Often accompanied by the Word Cruft "this happens when...." It's okay to skip the "this happens" and just say what happens.
  • Examples that say who the example is, but not what makes them an example. Often accompanied by the Word Cruft "[Character name] is an example" or "[Character name] is this."
  • Examples that say that a trope is Played With without any other context. It's fine to note when a trope is averted or subverted (as long as it actually is averted or subverted), but that by itself is not context.

I'd also consider adding this to the See Also section:

  • Word Cruft: Cruft is bad enough when it's in an example entry that does have full context, but when an entry is nothing but cruft, it can make what's essentially a ZCE hard to spot.

Edited by HighCrate on Aug 21st 2019 at 6:35:10 AM


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