Big "Big Bad" clean-up project

I really don't know how to make that paragraph about Hortan anymore clear because his actions are tied up in the lore so much I'd need to write up an entire essay about who the watchers are and who every character he affects is to be more clear that that.

Whether he intended his actions to have far-reaching consequences as a means to an end to turn the Watchers and Immortals on each other is up for interpretation because he IS a manipulative villain but he never explicitly states that goal.

Kalas indeed has an entire season finale arc upon his return where get's his hands on the Watcher's files and threatens to use them to expose Immortals to the world. Duncan accepting his challenge and taking his head is the only thing that prevents it.

Ahirman, I can give a shot (not sure how to have multiple paragraphs in one bullet):

• Ahriman, the Arc Villain for finale of season 5 and the premiere of season 6. He's an ancient demon of godlike power implied to be the source of every culture's devil-like figure. Duncan soon learns that every 1,000 years a chosen warrior must defeat him to protect humanity and in this era that chosen warrior is him.

• After being tormented by the demon and tricked into taking Richie's head Duncan has a Heroic BSoD and goes into hiding for a year to mourn and prepare to face him. Upon his return he meets an expert on the demon named Sophie Baines who helps him learn about Ahriman but who he soon discovers Ahriman killed and then resurrected so he could use her to manipulate him unbeknownst to her.

• Ahriman tricks Sophie's brother, Andrew into helping him lure Duncan into a trap under threat of killing his sister. Andrew shoots Duncan and prepares to cut off his head but is stopped when Sophie kills herself to stop him from finishing Duncan, knowing Ahriman can't hold her life over her brothers head if she's already dead

• Duncan finally realizes in the end the secret to overcoming the demon is to stay his sword and triumphs by facing him but refusing to fight. Sealing him away for the next 1,000 years.

Edited by shoboni on Feb 23rd 2019 at 9:43:55 AM

You don't need to write everything the character does. Take the examples on my sandbox, for example— I'm just explaining, briefly, how each character influences the plot in such a way that without them there'd really be no plot. That's what you should try to do with your characters. Just explain who they are and, very briefly, how they effect the story.

Anyway, I've done about all I can with the sandbox. I think it's as good as it'll get, so I'm going to transfer the sandbox format over now.

I'd remove the Pinocchio example. It's listed as a Big Bad Ensemble, in which case the entry should go on that page. However, I don't think it counts as that, either. A Big Bad Ensemble specifically has to feature multiple Big Bads operating simultaneously. IIRC, the villains of Pinocchio don't really overlap; one is dealt with, then another shows up.

It seems like that's a film that has several villains, but no Big Bad.

Fair enough, fair enough. I'll go fix that.

Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 26th 2019 at 2:27:09 PM

This is the only example in the "art" folder. Thoughts? I'm leaning to "cut".

• Can churches have antagonists? If so, the Devil is a pretty safe pick for being the main driver of any evil present in the Sistine Chapel. Whether he's the beautiful serpent lady from the Ceiling Fresco or a much filthier bat-man from a wall painting, Satan can't help but try and coax people into doing evil so when they get to the altar painting, they'll keep him company as God throws every sinner into Hell for eternity in the Chapel's altar painting.

Cut and move the example on the main trope page.

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood. I though there is an Art subpage.

Hmm, seems like shoe-horning anyway and not really a concrete example in a concrete work of art. So cut is appropriate.

Edited by XFllo on Mar 1st 2019 at 9:43:26 PM

What do you mean move the example? There's no Art subpage, it's just this example in a folder. All I'd have to do is remove the whole folder.

Satan would definitely be the big bad of most abrahamic religions in the religion folder but that one sounds like shoe-horning.

Yeah, I doubt art of the guy can really count for anything.

I wouldn't categorically rule out the idea of a painting having a Big Bad, but the way that entry is written is kind of all over the place. Unless there's someone here with enough familiarity with the work to rewrite it, I'd err on the side of cutting.

I would say that a painting can have a Big Bad if it's illustrating a story. Satan just happening to exist in the artwork doesn't count- it's more that he is the Big Bad of the religion, so in theory he'd also be the automatic Big Bad of religious artwork, but I don't think that's how that works.

In other words, I cut it. Maybe if we can figure out how to make it work, we can re-write it and re-add it.

Anyway, I'd like to get started on a new subpage sandbox, but I'm not sure where to begin. I don't know most of the other works in each medium as well as in Animated Films, so I guess a sandbox wouldn't accomplish much that commenting-out the actual examples on each subpage wouldn't.

Edited by WarJay77 on Mar 2nd 2019 at 2:06:14 PM

We've been neglecting this one. I've made a sandbox for the Anime and Manga section. Y'all are more than welcome to join me. In fact, I'll need it, since I don't know Anime and Manga too well...

I'd like to get back to the suggested model examples. That was a great idea that somehow got lost.

Also I've been trying to figure out the relationship between the various subtropes and I tried to "trope" my favourite shows or books, but I'm not absolutely, truly sure I get the trope and its subtropes...

Same...

Trying to work on my new sandbox. The examples are either

• "Show: Character X"

or

• "Show: Character X and sometimes Character Y before Character Y turns good in the second season and gets replaced with Character Z, who becomes the true big bad after..."

The handful of good examples sprinkled among the nonsense are the only thing that gives me hope.

Edit: Cleaned up until the end of the Dragon Ball examples. This is gonna be a long one.

Edited by WarJay77 on Mar 12th 2019 at 2:49:50 PM

Is this enough context?

Planet Ajay: Badjay is the source of most of the bad happenings on Planet Ajay.

Edited by Mickoonsley19 on Mar 19th 2019 at 4:14:33 AM

No. "Trope happens" is not enough context. What does the character cause?

It's at least hinting that the use of Big Bad is correct, but yeah, not enough context.

Agh...I forgot about this for a bit. I'll try and get back to work tonight.

Proposing an example of Big Bad:

• Isaac Asimov's "The Mule": The Mule manipulates people around him with Psychic Powers, turning entire planets to despondency and fear, allowing his fleet of ships to conquer the entire First Foundation. The protagonists manage to rescue his jester, Magnifico Gigantus, only to learn that the Mule had wanted them to do so. Twice they barely escape as the Mule's fleet brutally conquers the planet they're on. They head to Trantor to figure out where the Second Foundation is as their only chance to stop the Mule. Bayta realizes just in time that Magnifico is the Mule, and that's how he's been one step ahead of them this whole time.

Edited by crazysamaritan on Mar 27th 2019 at 10:25:57 AM

Could be valid, but it needs to specify what work The Mule is the Big Bad of. IIRC the character doesn't appear until the second book of the Foundation trilogy. It's been a while since I read Foundation, but I think an argument could be made that he functions as the Big Bad of Foundation and Empire and Second Foundation, but not of the Foundation series as whole.

I specified which work; "The Mule". It was a two-part story in Astounding Science Fiction first and his actions had no effect on "The General (Foundation)". I make no argument regarding Second Foundation as yet.

Ah, okay. I was unaware that there was a work by Asimov called "The Mule," I only knew it as the name of the character.

This thread could use a bump.

Anyone else okay to just move on with the discussed trope definitions for now?

So, it seems like someone just brought back all the Zero Context Examples we commented out on the sub-page for Live-Action Film. Now the person who did this did ask what happened to all the examples on the Discussion page, but they apparently didn't wait that long for a response before bringing every entry back.

So, what should we do now?