Politics in Media - The Good, the Bad, and the Preachy

There is something to be said about many metal fans being rather chill people because the music they listen to gets it out of their system, but likewise porn studies have shown that it changes how people (het men mostly) view the the opposite sex - with objectifying and dehumanising tendencies in some cases.

Yes, sadly it seems to not be a one-to-one causation.

Some studies report prisoners becoming more docile and relaxed thanks to the availability of porn.

Others point the opposite.

Which, in the case of the Shield hero, just so happens to include slavery and petty vengeance on the women that wronged them.

Edited by Kayeka on Jan 18th 2019 at 1:08:45 PM

I think it is because to quote Ready Player One, "Only reality is real."

I have played many Vampire: The Masquerade games with characters who have been real scumbags and a lot of the time, it's interesting to step into the shoes of someone who isn't just a Escapist Character but is someone drastically different from you in personality.

To experience the world as someone different is its own appeal.

Maybe there's a bit of yourself in everything, even your darkest side, but you could also say that it is possible to want to play someone who is another person good or bad.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 18th 2019 at 4:12:20 AM

The “it’s just a fetish” argument only goes so far. Yes, it could very well be a fetish, but just because it is doesn’t automatically make it acceptable.

I could never really do that. I would always play characters that were more morally sound usually.

In any of the Old Republic games for example I always was lightside but would on rare occasions pick a dark side option if the other character was a total ass.

To pop back in and clarify my earlier stance, I'm more arguing for "idealized" fictional slavery (fantasy/magic-based or what-have-you - historical is still damaging, I would argue) that emphasizes Happiness in Slavery, which, while having unfortunate implications, is a legitimate kink. (And I think that's why Corvidae keeps bringing up BDSM - because for many people, it's attractive, on either side.) Ideally, anyone who reads something involving fetishized slavery and decides they want a slave in real life will go look up a lifestyle meetup, because the kind of person who decides to go get a real slave is a dangerous criminal and should be punished according to all applicable laws.

@Kayeka: At the risk of whataboutism, I'd argue that plenty of Batman works are escapist wish-fulfillment, and we aren't concerned about people going down to the docks with a Kevlar bodysuit on and crippling dockworkers for life. The kind of person who has dangerous and antisocial ideas about women or other people in general is going to hold those ideas regardless; as I've said, there's something to be said for making sure material like that is clearly indicated and opt-in rather than spread everywhere, but it's not the responsibility of content creators to make sure everything they produce is safe for consumption by the least stable members of society.

Same. Even my attempts at roleplaying evil characters kinda fail and I just turn them good because I want my party to like me. My Renegade Shepard run didn't get far.

Speaking as a professional author, I think that's because the best evil characters have an internal logic to them even if it's completely insane from the exterior.

My favorite "evil" character was Mike Thorton in ALPHA PROTOCOL who had the ending of taking over Halbech the Evil MegaCorp and becoming a Corrupt Corporate Executive. However, that's because he's fallen in love with Scarlet and wants to protect her. He's also aware the whole system is corrupt so he might as well run his portion of it. It feels better and more authentic than the Lawful Good ending where you help the NSA take down Alpha Protocol.

I feel similarly about Fallout 4 where I consider the Institute ending my "canon" ending because I feel like the other endings are just too "pat." I had a choice between the Brotherhood of Steel or Institute and my protagonist took what he felt was the lesser of two evils.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 18th 2019 at 4:29:19 AM

I guess that different people have different ways of interacting with fiction. I, personally, could never do that. I tried in a couple of Dn D games for the sake of nerd cred, but I couldn't even play the bad guy in a video game. I just couldn't get into the mindset of a person that wants to do bad things.

In the same sense, I can handle some moral greyness in my fiction. I've even enjoyed works with an actual Villain Protagonist. Works that feature a protagonist doing obviously bad stuff and being portrayed as being in the right, however, just pisses me off.

I feel the opposite a lot of the times.

If a good ending is too "good" and "easy" then I feel the game is cheating. Its why I can't play Light Side Jedi on The Old Republic. I have to play LS Sith. Because I don't want to play "pure evil" but I feel the good guys are too saccharine.

I plan to do a Corporate run for Cyberpunk 2077.

Unless the Corporates are COMPLETELY irredeemable, I plan to play my character being out to look out for himself and his friends.

Fuck everyone else.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 18th 2019 at 4:31:21 AM

I'm the sort who says they're going to run an evil character, then can't stand to be mean to people. It doesn't usually help that the standard evil roleplaying choices were things like 'help the old woman cross the street/shoot the old woman and steal the purse she was bringing to the orphans' back in the early-mid 2000s.

Edited by RedSavant on Jan 18th 2019 at 7:34:25 AM

We are however worried about people dehumanizing "thugs" and demanding extreme punishments for criminals. That's how you get deeply unjust prison systems and judges elected for being "tough on crime".

Like I said before, fiction may not be as direct a call to action as the Moral Guardians would have you believe, but they do inform one's worldview.

Edited by Kayeka on Jan 18th 2019 at 1:43:12 PM

Now, I am currently playing a Chaotic Neutral Old One worshipping Warlock (albeit one who hasn't necessarily doing anything for the evuls) and writing a story where one of the two M Cs is a cultist who sacrifices her family to gain favour with Lovecraftian cosmos deities in her first scene, so it's not like I can't play/write bad people if I feel sufficiently detached from them, but it kinda varies.

That reminds me of Reginald D Hunter's "Batman is a conservative's wet dream" joke, because he's a billionaire who beats up street level crime and rather than going after the moguls and billionaires and supercapitalists who exploit far more people than any rando mugger.

Edited by GoldenKaos on Jan 18th 2019 at 12:42:01 PM

Its the problem of a black and white worldview as we discussed with communism.

The War on Drugs is one that horribly impacts minorities, the prison system, and is utterly ineffective. It has also wholly destroyed the economies as well as warped the culture of whole nations.

And yet, honestly, there's tens of thousands of narco-traffickers who truly are fantastic pieces of shit.

CARTEL LAND was a crazy Netflix documentary comparing the vigilantes on the US side of the border (weekend warriors who include a lot of casual racists more likely to run into people trying to sneak across) with the people engaged in actual Civil War with cartel members.

Some fighting for survival and others just commiting vigilante executions.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 18th 2019 at 4:42:28 AM

An aside, I found Cartel Land to be hilariously overblown. Actual instances of vigilante violence along the US-Mexico border are very rare. You have to go much further into Mexico for the violence to really pick up, and even then it doesn’t exactly rise to the level they were making it out to be.

I think the point being made though is that fiction is more omg a subtle influence on society. Batman isn’t inspiring people to put on a mask and fight crime, but it can inform public sentiment on crime. The same is true for fiction depicting things like slavery, which is why those depictions can be so dangerous.

Pretty spot on.

Edited by Corvidae on Jan 18th 2019 at 1:51:56 PM

I think the point of contention there is “legitimate kink”. There are things that could be described as a fetish that we don’t really permit in society. Pedophilia, snuff fetishes, that kind of stuff. The question is merely whether slavery is a legitimate kink or an unacceptable one.

As long as it's not actual slavery, it should be safe enough to pass muster. Unless it's in the American Context, where it overlaps with Race.

At which point it's just super uncomfortable for a lot of people right about now. American Slavery Systems are still a case of Too Soon, so it would almost certainly be seen as distasteful.

It's all about context.

Edited by TechPriest90 on Jan 18th 2019 at 7:59:23 AM

What about people that don't have such views yet? South Park, for example, is a show that was (is?) very popular amongst teenagers and children, a fact that someone involved with that show must be highly aware of, considering the amount of merchandise targeted at children. It also consistently shows people worried about pretty much anything, from smoking to global warming, as ineffectual whiners that should just shut up so that the cool kids can go on not giving a crap.

Can you really say that South Park had no influence on the way many people today see the world?

Well, since we're explicitly talking about fiction here (and maybe consensual roleplaying and such, if you include the BDSM references) that's kind of a no-brainer, isn't it?

Hence the "clearly indicated and opt-in rather than spread everywhere" part.

Edited by Corvidae on Jan 18th 2019 at 2:14:52 PM

Eh, I think there’s more of a grey area in terms of severity of depiction than that. For example, the anime we were discussing earlier. It depends on the sensitivity and nature of the depiction.

Personally I think slavery is despicable enough that it should be tossed in the bin with pedophilia and the other “unacceptables”, but that’s just me.

$WARNING: this show promotes unhealthy attitudes towards women, includes positive depictions of chattel slavery, and people generally being dicks.

Yeah, I'm not really seeing that happen. It's too vague for one, which is why we're having so many pages worth of discussion on these subjects. And there's the whole "who decides these labels anyway?" question.

Which is why I'd rather see the producers themselves take responsibility for the world views their works might foster.

Edited by Kayeka on Jan 18th 2019 at 2:30:35 PM

Such warnings already exist, and can be pretty detailed.

I've seen some works that included a "behind-the-scenes" segment at the start or end where the actors discussed their feelings about the scenario, went through various safety measures etc. - All with a very clear "this is all play-pretend and we're not actually hurting or abusing each other, and neither should you" message.

For a more mainstream example, the 2012 Three Stooges movie had a scene that carefully explained the difference between fake comedy violence and actual injuries. Pretty much the only good part of that film imo, but still.

The general consensus for the answer to your earlier question is "for the most part, no".

If that's not enough for you, fine. I doubt at this point any of us are going to change our minds.

Personally, I'm getting weary of trying to convince people as to why it's not a good idea to write slavery that tries to portray slavery in a good light or specifically panders to people who would want to own slaves in reality.