Politics in Media - The Good, the Bad, and the Preachy

In Odin's case, he's apparently spent several centuries trying to cultivate good relations with his neighbors and reign in his people—which is an interesting point that had Hela come differently, might have been met well if Loki's Fantastic Racism is accurate.

She might have gone, "Hey, want to kill the Frost Giants?"

And gotten a better response.

Like I said, trying to hide is past to such extent that nobody seen to remenber any of it muddle water further, is hard to justify that because he didnt really make aments with that, he hide is pass and act like a wise king and when he dies everything goes to hell.

"you can easily make an interpretation of something that isn't supported by the actual text"

The problem with that stament is that it dosent separate element that are questionable for actual view of the autor from what the writing end being, all diferent elements that get lost into it, and more often than not, it praise of a condemn a work for having something that resemble a theme most of the time.

Now the thing with Odin come with two things: one that he just didnt "Have a phase", is that he try to hide everything he does, nobody know about Hela until he dies and Thor and Loki have to deal with that and then he appear in this pseudo obi wan moment to advise Thor and there is something about it that is not good, like they jump is redemption or have it backwards, with him being good, then reveal he was bad and then just cut the whole thing enterely.

And that if course, not taking about Valkire, I find her awsome but the concept is really insulting.

Thing is, message are not always put because they want to teach something, more often that not is because is a demand for the public who want their fiction to be good and meaning for then, "Good conquer bad" "frindship will win" etc, they are part of the same entertainment value rather than any message of their on, then there is analysis that is less "what is the political messages of this" and more "what element influence surrond the show or can be see" which is a very different ballpark.

Unless the author makes his personal views known, we can only really judge the work based on what's in, well, the work. It's not like I'm going to assume someone automatically has awful views if there's some mild Unfortunate Implications in what they write. And besides, the actual views of the author inform the work, but they're also not really as important as what the work actually says. The classic example is Twilight and how Stephenie Meyer didn't think she was writing a creepy and abusive relationship but a lot of people saw it that way, and it was certainly a valid reading of the work.

So the lack of separation between the author's views and the end result of the writing isn't really an issue, more like something to take into account when evaluating what something is saying.

The Thor movies can be summed as "Thor cleans up Odin's messes". Odin's spirit even acknowledges in the end that Thor was the better man.

Not sure what the issue with Valkyrie is.

She enslaved people to fight for the grandmaster on the junk planet (cant be arsed to recall its name right now) and thats basically it

The planet's name is Sakaar.

It does seem odd how people forget that Valkyrie was a slaver. It helps that the only one we actually see her capture and sell is Thor himself.

Edited by M84 on Nov 11th 2019 at 9:53:43 PM

I hate how this sounds so you'll have to forgive me, but I think a lot of people were just glad to have a woman of color in the movie with a substantial character arc (something understandable to be happy about, in fairness) that the implications of her being complicit in what's basically a slave trade got glossed over a bit.

"The classic example is Twilight and how Stephenie Meyer didn't think she was writing a creepy and abusive relationship but a lot of people saw it that way, and it was certainly a valid reading of the work."

I will said is kinda important, Meyer is a mormon and many of her stuff view to that lens, specially renesse and Jacob imprinting of her have basis in some sort of mormon beliefs, coming across as sort a some sort of values dissonance.

Well separation of author view from text can come in strangely little ways: Conan author for example, give one of the best rebuttal and one liners against facism(and I mean OG facist, back them when it was a fashionable idea and not something young edgelord like to LARP about) and yet is chararters are often see as some sort of proto-facistic ideas.

M84: I dont know, the first is Loki fault, even if Odin could handle that better, the second is not much is fault(and I headcanon that the dark elves invasion is what make him a warmonger) and the third one..yeah that it is, I said there is not much redemption but the idea of one that is skip over, and considering how Loki get okey with Banner(more or less) even after he try to used it(a big nono for Hulk) and Valkire being a slaver but then is okey because she become a hero like 15 minutes later and one sad moment of her being a squad of the already mention warmonger, Is hard for me not to see this as Karma houdini: the movie.

Edited by unknowing on Nov 11th 2019 at 9:55:31 AM

It feels like Valkyrie being a bad guy complicit in the evils of a tyrannical regime is part of the movie's THEME rather than a mistake. Especially with Skurge the Executioner's arc.

Which is to say that servants of tyrannical regimes can redeem themselves as can tyrannical empires.

Loki, Valkyrie, Hulk (even as a gladiator), Skurge, and Odin himself.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 11th 2019 at 5:56:31 AM

Robert E. Howard is an interesting guy to contrast to his best friend (despite never meeting in person) H.P. Lovecraft. He had a lot of chest-pumping Nieztsche Wannabe beliefs but was a Anti-Nihilist at heart who respected other cultures even if he was a man of his time.

What is the quote about fascism?

1. “You accuse me of ‘hating human development’ because I mistrust Fascism. Well, there can’t be much tolerance about a system whose advocates denounce as ‘enemies of humanity’ anyone who disagrees with them. According to that, you consider as ‘enemies of humanity’ every man and woman in the world who is not a Fascist. I do not condemn the reforms you say would be possible under Fascism.”

2. “I simply do not believe they would exist under a Fascist government. Of course you can draw glowing pictures of a Fascist Utopia. But you can not prove that Fascism is anything but a sordid, retrogressive despotism, which crushes the individual liberty and strangles the intellectual life of every country it inflicts with its slimy presence…And Fascism is nothing but a new fad-name for industrial tyranny. It’s the final step of entrenched special privilege-holders, which would peon the people beneath them beyond all hope.”

3. “You say that the type of Fascism you advocate is without despotism and persecution of intellectual freedom; you might as well say you advocate a cobra without its venom, a skunk without its stench, or a leper without his scabs.”

I think what unnoun was getting at is that he thinks Valkyrie's crimes are not properly addressed and that she gets off too lightly for essentially being a slaver. I can kind of see his argument, but I would have to watch Ragnarok again to get a feel for how the movie treats her overall.

You can definitely criticize the films for being too lenient on Loki too, I think, given he basically wanted to commit genocide in the first Thor film.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Nov 11th 2019 at 10:06:14 AM

. “You say that the type of Fascism you advocate is without despotism and persecution of intellectual freedom; you might as well say you advocate a cobra without its venom, a skunk without its stench, or a leper without his scabs

Wait a minute. There were fascists that pulled the "Not.real.fascism card" rather than go full Card-Carrying Villain?

...So The Foodprint of Mussolini scenario where Fascists and Communists have their reputations flipped isn't that crazy

Considering how the term "privilege" came to be defined in certain context, I have to say that quote came to be ahead of its time (or mayhaps that definition was Older than I thought)

I think those types were called "cryptofascists".

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Nov 11th 2019 at 6:13:40 AM

Thanks, I find the third one the best as today to many edgelord want to have the appealing of facism but are too coward to admit what it entails.

Also, there was a quote he said about how in texas they dont burn books like in germany.

Kazuya: he was taking to lovecraft in those letters, love was kinda a alt righter of is time.

Edited by unknowing on Nov 11th 2019 at 10:12:33 AM

I've heard Robert E Howard also had some surprisingly decent female characters for his time despite the machismo Conan is often associated with.

Kinda?.....I mean, the worst issue with Howard is that he reused the same element A LOT(Hard looking man of probably celtic decend, soft white woman, evil oriental warlocks, gigant snake and apes....dear go how many apes and snakes) so many of then are sort woman of the week, they have strong chararters but they still subservant to the machismo of conan.

So, yes and no.

Belit, Valeria, the original Red Sonya (Russian mercenary), and some non-action girls.

It should be noted Robert E. Howard's non-pen pal best friend was a woman author as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Whole_Wide_World

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 11th 2019 at 6:16:04 AM

I havent read red nails yet(I have yet to red hour of the dragon) but Beit while good is indeed a non action girl which is not a good thing in such a action fuel series like Conan, Granted the girls have very cool lines so it is something and I feel they can be fully upgraded to action girl with minimal fuss.

Now, if one want to read Howard views and what it likes and not is not conan but Almuric, which is pretty much Robert howard isekai....im not kidding, the premise is about a man who was falsely convicted of murder, he turn around to a scientist friend who transport him to the eponymous planet, which is pretty much your sword and sorcery world in which take everything howard already make in one place: ancient civilization that have disappear, and evil civilization of winged men and a bunch of fortress of people in barbarian statis, never progressing or regressing(more or less said with this words).

I found the work more annoying because the character keep narrating how strong he have become, how is better than anyone on earth in the physical sense since he have being in the planet and how happy he is living as barbarian without worry about much deep thinking, is pretty much Howard tank piece about everything he likes.

Edited by unknowing on Nov 11th 2019 at 10:41:23 AM

So...pretty must your standard Isekai then (being written from a guy from the US and lacking death by roadkill aside)?

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Nov 11th 2019 at 6:54:49 AM

The soul of isekai join all of us

Yeah, pretty much, granted Howard DOES good pretty worldbulding, the barbarian for example, live in fortress that have the same aparience(big, thick walls, no adornment of any kind), there is a kind of sexual diphormist(sorry, I dont know the work) in that men are big and stronger while the woman are somewhat small, women have no role in sociaty but at the same time men are very kind to her as sort of social conditioning, they have have a sort of primitive rifle that can shoot once a huge piece of lead.

Also, the romantic interest actually talk the protagonist about how much he is just want to be a mindless barbarian and if there is more than that, which is something I guess.

So yeah, is an isekai, not surprising considering that Robert was kind of a dork in fact.

Marvel has actually recently brought back one of Howard's awesome female characters, Dark Agnes. Basically if the later Red Sonya (and more strongly the later Red Sonja) is a Distaff Counterpart to Conan the Barbarian as "the female barbarian", Dark Agnes is a Distaff Counterpart to Howard's other iconic character Solomon Kane. Here's a link to the new Marvel series starring her.

As for Howard and his social takes, they go back and forth. He's somewhat Fair for Its Day when it comes to female representation. On race he's a lot more dicey. There's often a respect for other races but it's always a bit of a mess. Solomon Kane (most of the stories being set in Africa) is the most distinct when it comes to dealing with race, so it's the best one to explore Howard's racial themes. And they're definitely a mixed bag.

On one hand, the positive lies in the fact Kane (a fanatical Christian puritan) actually has a rather interesting arc where he starts as very prejudiced towards African (West Africa, usually) culture and religion, but as the stories progress he is forced to confront the righteous side of those people, which is more often than not illustrated by N'longa, the Juju man (basically a West African take on shaman/sorcerer). N'longa employs what Kane views as black uncrhsitian magic, but N'longa is unquestionably on the side of the angels and this forces Kane to confront his prejudices and eventually admit that yeah, the world isn't as black and white as he saw and there is righteousness in Juju and its pagan gods. N'longa himself is a interesting character in that while he speaks to Kane in broken English due not knowing English very well, he is highly intelligent and cunning, often actually saving the day mostly by himself with Kane only providing varying levels of assistance. N'longa even gets to step outside a bit of the Magical Negro and Black Best Friend archetypes by having objectives of his own rather than just helping Kane (in fact, it's more usual for Kane to just stumble onto something N'longa was already doing than the other way around). N'longa even gets a pretty awesome speech towards the end of Hills of the Dead where he calls out Kane on his prejudice towards African religion and culture even after N'longa saves his ass several times in a row with it. In specific, N'longa hijacks someone's body to save Kane and Kane is concerned N'longa just killed the guy's soul or something to do this. N'longa fires back:

By the end Kane is changed and concedes that he has been too prejudiced. So, overall, the relationship between Kane and N'longa is surprisingly complex and progressive for its time.

On the flipside, N'longa is still ultimately second fiddle to Kane, and his juju magic is still often played as vaguely foreboding. He is very close to a Magical Negro (he barely escapes the definition solely by having objectives of his own rather than existing for the white protagonist) and in one way or another still there to help Kane get woker or to save his ass and provide exposition. The fact he still speaks in broken pidgin English is mildly clever (in that it's evident he's both much more eloquent in his native tongue and the fact he's playing it up to fuck with Solomon), but it's still uncomfortable.

Outside of N'longa is where shit goes sideways. Aside from the way Howard characterizes West Africa as of itself (i.e as a backward wasteland of savagery), Kane (very conspicuously) almost always only gets involved in the affairs of the Africans when there's a white woman in danger, and then there's the real nasty stuff like when Kane encounters a African woman he finds very beautiful and instantly deduces her beauty comes from some European race-mixing that "redeemed" her more strongly African features, something he concludes from her lighter shade of skin (and the narrative never contradicts or addresses this).

In a later story, Solomon ends up captured by a tribe of psychotic religious fanatics who reside in some form of massive highly advanced temple. Upon walking there Solomon instantly leapfrogs over entire continent's worth of reasonable assumptions about that to conclude that Africans could never have built such a complex structure because they weren't advanced enough and this whole temple must thus have been built by an earlier race. This patently insane deduction is proven correct when he later meets the last of the dying race that built that place. Bizarrely his description implies that race may have been a forebear to the modern Africans as he still shares some of the features. So overall, it's pretty fucking bad.

Howard's political opinions are also a mess because he often held the belief that savagery and barbarism is humanity's original (and often righteous) nature (see Conan the Barbarian's whole shtick), so when he says Africans are savages he means it as a compliment.