Not Thriving: Temporary Scrappy

I see the previous TRS for this trope was axed. But I had an idea for how and why it needs fixing.

This trope was created before Hate Sink, and the previous thread struggled to find any valid distinction. While said thread apparently cleaned out the complaining and natter, with only 6 wicks outside of indexes, it's still not thriving as is.

My thought was that the difference between Temporary Scrappy and Hate Sink is that a Hate Sink is clearly intended to be unlikeable right of the bat, but a Temporary Scrappy at first appears to be The Scrappy since it not clearly unintentional (they're allies of the heroes and praised despite otherwise) until the reveal otherwise. I can think of a few examples of that.

Adding some examples and updating the definition to reflect this should salvage this trope into something worthwhile. At the very least, it should be updated to acknowledge Hate Sink as a related trope.

That sounds a bit like Subverted Suspiscion Aesop, but your idea doesn't seem too bad. But, so that we're absolutely certain that nobody gets confused with any YMMV stuff, let's call it something like "Bait and Switch Replacement". Because your idea seems solidly objective.

For the not thriving problem, the page itself has a lot more examples. They just need to be crosswicked.

It should probably be listed as a subtrope to Hate Sink, since ultimately it's about a character that's supposed to be disliked.

edited 13th Mar '18 4:20:27 PM by AnotherDuck

Hold on, I'm confused:

I always through the meaning of this trope was a character that started out a Scrappy but then developed in a way the public opinion of them changes. Not when a intentionally unlikable character is make as a temporary cast member.

Which now looking at the page would actually Rescued from the Scrappy Heap.

Could the confusing name be keeping it from thriving?

edited 13th Mar '18 6:45:25 PM by shoboni

Most likely. It's really actually more related to Hate Sink then any of the "Scrappy" tropes.

Most likely the culprit is that people don't read the description and assume the trope is about something.

The difference is Rescued from the Scrappy Heap is an after the fact response to criticism, Temporary Scrappy is where it's written beforehand. Rescued is also to make them more likable, Temporary Scrappy is about establishing they were supposed to be unlikable.

Temporary Scrappy is a sub-trope of Hate Sink (which I think is being overused as many examples overlap with Evil Is Cool which is supposed to be a disqualifier... But that's another debate.) as a double despite having lot's of reason for audiences to hate them, there's nothing from how they're treated in-universe to suggest it's intentional, until there is. Examples:

• Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans: Iok Kujan is an utterly incompetent commander who repeatedly screws up his allies and the heroes efforts, leading to needless deaths on both sides, and avoids karma thanks to his position, dumb luck, and subordinates sacrifices. Despite this, he retains lots of in-universe popularity and loyalty, which his allies lampshade. Any doubt he's supposed to be disliked is erased in the final episode, where his luck dramatically runs out and he gets a Cruel and Unusual Death at the hands of Akihiro (who's love interest was one of his victims), forcing the abolishment of the corrupt system leading to all the unequivocal good to come from the Bittersweet Ending. Note that Iok falls short of being a actual Hate Sink as, unlike established Hate Sinks from the show, he has misguided noble intent and traits that make him popular in-universe, showing this trope can be distinct from Hate Sink.
• My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic: "A Canterlot Wedding – Part 1" has Twilight Sparkle praise Princess Cadance, who fails to live up to it which Twilight calls everyone out on for failing to notice. Cadance then manipulates everyone into turning against Twilight thinking she jealous, then when Twilight apologies, prove her accusations were right. "Part 2" then reveals that "Cadance" was an imposter, with the real Cadance being every big as likable as we've been led to believe. Ironically, said imposter, Queen Chrysalis, was so Love to Hate she became the franchises most recurring antagonist.

Other thoughts?

edited 15th Mar '18 3:05:13 PM by Ferot_Dreadnaught

I think we need to stop trying to connect this to Hate Sink or The Scrappy.

The trope, as described by the current description, is basically a stock plot:

• Alice, Bob, and Carol are a team
• Dennis comes and join the team. He pretty much does whatever Bob does, but better.
• Alice and Carol are happy, but Bob is sad that he's essentially been replaced.
• Turns out Dennis is actually evil or incompetent.
• Bob saves the day, Dennis gets kicked out, and the original team is back.

There, nothing to do with The Scrappy or Hate Sink. While Dennis is usually intended as unlikable, I think it's a completely separate matter that just happen to overlap often.

That's probably fair if you read it as a plot trope rather than as a character trope.

TBH, I'd almost suggest renaming the trope.

I think the name that sounds more like it's a duplicate of Rescued from the Scrappy Heap is part of the misuse problem. Maybe something like Parody Scrappy since it's intended to take the piss out of Scrappy characters?

I wonder if a name like Fake Ace or Fake Replacement Ace would be better, since it focuses more on the plot aspect of the trope than the hate part.

It's not necessary for the new character to be The Ace, but it's a character better than the main character she's replacing. I don't think borrowing the connotations of The Ace would confuse it, though. It might create problems for The Ace, though, so it's not the best of names.

While it's true that it's a character the audience is supposed to want gone from the work, it's not specified whether it's the same kind of hate as in The Scrappy or as in Hate Sink. My impression is that the original creator of the trope didn't make that distinction. What this ultimately means it's that it's an antagonist trope, but not specified exactly how the audience is supposed to feel about it. As such I think it's better to focus the name on the plot aspect instead, since that's more clearly defined in the trope.

@8: That almost sounds like a supertrope of Tyrant Takes the Helm (that one being specifically when Da Chief gets temporarily replaced).

I'd support renaming and cutting misuse.

Same.

What is a misuse? There are so few examples of Temporary Scrappy that if there's misuse, we might as well cut.

If we keep, this should definitely get a new name to separate it from The Scrappy.

UPDATE: I found the trope Sketchy Successor, which is a similar concept. Something to keep in mind when redefining this trope.

edited 26th Mar '18 10:37:28 AM by Ferot_Dreadnaught

Bump. And how soon do they have to be killed/kicked off to count as this (just soon enough to be sure this was the plan all along as opposed to after the fact)?

I think as a rule, one episode. Or maybe a two-parter.

I'd say it depends a little on the series. A short arc could work as well.

So would Iok Kujan count? His unlikablity lasted three arcs, the last half of Season 2. If not, what would we call him? (Too intentional to be The Scrappy, but might not be a Hate Sink since he has more likable traits (in-univere at least) than other Hate Sinks in the show.)

What's a Iok Kujan?

But the way you describe it, it sounds like something else.

I agree that this trope seems to be more about the characterization of the scrappy than the audience reaction which makes it a scrappy in the first place. A rename to something like Fake Ace Replacement seems the best option.

How about "Hate and Discard" as a name?

How about One Shot Hate Sink?

Clock is up; closing for inactivity/lack of consensus. No action is to be taken on the basis of this thread.