Not Tropeworthy: Everybody Hates Ares

IMO it isn't any different than Historical Villain Upgrade, the modern portrayal is more villainous than their historical 'when people actually worshiped' one.

Just merge em, there are a few examples already there.

edited 1st Mar '17 7:57:31 AM by Memers

Not to mention Adaptational Villainy...though from what I can tell, the ancient Greeks weren't terribly fond of Ares in the first place.

edited 1st Mar '17 9:32:45 AM by Theatre_Maven_3695

Ok, so to recap for the new page

We have multiple suggestions for creating separate tropes / supertropes:

• God Flanderization
• Black And White Divinity
• Something Specific To The Greek Pantheon

Creating those may have some implications for existing Hades/Zeus tropes, but otherwise they are separate from this issue.

War God already exists, and opinion is split whether this trope is redundant. There is some consensus that this is a trope, albeit a little confused and poorly worded.

Stepping back from theological and historical discussions, there are concepts from this trope which might fit better in one of the above proposed tropes.

As Water Blap mentioned, there has been little discussion regarding the snowclone name. However, it is thematically related to Hades/Zeus tropes, thus could be given a pass.

—

Honestly, I think unlaunching it might be a little premature. I'd like to see some clear evidence why this is or is not a trope.

edited 1st Mar '17 1:50:19 PM by pokedude10

It's not God Flanderization though, it's just they are portrayed as more evil than they actually were in said religion. This happens to a lot of gods, even YHWH in the Shin Megami Tensei games.

God Flanderization would be taking one quality or quirk with a well rounded character and exaggerating it and make that literally all they are as a character. That could happen with some gods and such but not really here.

edited 1st Mar '17 2:42:08 PM by Memers

That honestly sounds exactly like God Flanderization. But if we're going to propose the trope in TLP, we could probably continue this in that draft...?

vis-a-vis Snowclone:

The Zeus trope came after the Ares trope. I don't think that one is tropeworthy either, and it's being discussed in the YKTTW crash rescue thread. I don't think we can give this trope a pass based of the existence of the Zeus trope because the Zeus trope was excusing its snowclone based on the existence of this trope.

The person who created Everybody Loves Zeus was a ban-evader who kept spamming TLP with similarly themed tropes. They sponsored Everybody Loves Aphrodite, for example, and neither that trope nor the Zeus trope are thematically related to Everybody Hates Hades, even though that troper tried to make them related. The Zeus trope was (more than likely) intended to be the inverse trope to Everybody Hates Hades.^{Quotation From Zeus Trope} "Gods associated with light and lordship over other gods are typically portrayed as heroic and relatable while their darker counterparts are super violent and manipulative and other icky stuff." A quick look at the Hades trope's playing with page suggests that the tropes don't actually have that straight-inverse relationship.

tl;dr: My point is that the naming convention of the Ares trope should not be given a pass, because these three tropes are not thematically related.

This article should be cut. Examples put in one of the new tropes we propose in TLP.

That honestly sounds exactly like God Flanderization.

God Flanderization would be taking one aspect of a god and letting it to overshadow everything else. It is a thing, for example, Hera got this treatment in HerculesTheLegendaryJourneys where she was presented as little more than jealous bitch.

Here we have something different: gods are divided into good guys and evil guys, introducing conflict that was not present in the original pantheon. I mean, Hades was not about sunshine and rainbow, but he was NOT malevolent, he was merely doing his job most of the time, and unlike other gods he rarely left the underworld. Similarly, Zeus was not all about sunshine and rainbow either.

Umm wth 'Everybody Loves Zeus' I am sorry but No. Just... No. He shows up more often as a neutral or bad guy and philanderer, aka his actual self, than an actual good guy.

If anything the few examples where he is good are just Historical Niceness Upgrade assuming that exists somewhere.

edited 2nd Mar '17 4:45:59 AM by Memers

Umm wth 'Everybody Loves Zeus

Well, not everybody, but the guy is usually portrayed a lot better than he was in original myths. Granted, he has a Freudian Excuse, but still.

edited 2nd Mar '17 5:04:36 AM by permeakra

You don't understand. We just need to make the other missing tropes: Zeus Is A Big Old Meanie, Zeus Is A Philandering Jerk, and Zeus Is Ok But Not Great. Then we do the same for each and every other God from every pantheon, (Everyone Loves Odin, Odin Is A Big Old Meanie, Everyone Loves Vishnu, Vishnu Is A Big Old Meanie, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.) and we're all set, and someone has racked up tons of points for trope launching.

We do give points based on pure numbers of tropes launched, don't we?

ETA: On the very remote chance that someone's not sure: yes, this post is sarcasm.

edited 2nd Mar '17 9:51:43 AM by Xtifr

Ugh. Let me put it this way. What would God Flanderization add that is not already in Flanderization? . For that matter, what is in Everybody Hates Hades that is not already in Adaptational Villainy ?

x5: Yeah, you just described what I was already thinking of for God Flanderization (first part of your comment) and for Black And White Divinity (second part of your comment).

Myths are saliently different from other forms of media, so flanderizations of Ron Weasley are innately different from flanderizations of Ares. For one thing, the author has control over her characterization of Ron Weasley, whereas there is technically no true author who has authority over the characterization of Ares. Another difference is the political implications. If Ron Weasley gets flanderized into being a super-rude jerk, that doesn't really have any political implications. However, if non-believers of Ares flanderize him into being a super-rude jerk "just because," then that can have political implications (e.g. "These deities aren't real so who cares," etc.). To say nothing of the fact it's difficult (if not impossible) to always be sure what the "original" personality was like. So, to more explicitly answer your question, Flanderization does not include issues of author-control, political implications, or information gaps.

Basically, I think it's at least good enough to try a TLP draft.

RE #27: I don't think we should merge Everybody Hates Ares and Historical Villain Upgrade. HVU is for real-life persons, and the existence of deities isn't exactly something that people agree on.

RE #23: I don't think we should merge all three of these tropes (Ares, Zeus, Hades tropes). The Zeus trope is probably going to get cut and sent back via the crash rescue thread. Moreover, all of these are distinctly different from one another. The Zeus and Hades tropes being about misinterpretations and the Ares one being about people not liking the War God (in-universe or on a meta level).

Yeah, Flanderization seems like the wrong term to me. Especially since what we're talking about doesn't quite fit that actual trope.

My original suggestion was Hollywood Pagan Gods: "[V]arious semi-standard ways that Hollywood (and its predecessors, the medieval monks) misinterpret/re-interpret old Gods."

But I'm more than willing to hear even better name suggestions for our (clearly, I think) Missing Supertrope.

Maybe the Missing Supertrope is Binary Gods? (I'm beginning to think that we may have more than one Missing Supertrope here; the Flanderization aspect, where gods who had large or multiple areas of influence are simplified down to one, which may not even have been one of their original ones (Hades as a Death god) and the binary Good god/Bad(Evil) god division, when in the original pantheons, very few were entirely one or the other.)

>Flanderization does not include issues of author-control, political implications, or information gaps.

which have nothing to do with tropes.

Hollywood Pagan Gods is a good name for an index of individaul Hollywood Ares, Hollywood Zeus etc. Besides, (mis)portrayal of dieties goes well beyond video.

Black And White Divinity would be an actual general trope (modern works/adaptations tend to divide pagan and fictional pantheons into good and bad guys without much respect to source and even if that division doesn't actually exists in the original work), that covers the three pages we are talking about. I have no idea if it is tropeworthy.

edited 2nd Mar '17 11:35:50 AM by permeakra

"Flanderization" is usually done within the work, not if it's done in adaptations or by fans, right?

The supertrope is Sadly Mythtaken, yeah?

Flanderization is within the work, yes. I suppose it could be done in adaptations and fanworks, as well, but generally there are tropes specific to those types of works that fit cleaner.

I don't think that people not liking a War God is sufficiently distinct from War God itself to justify a separate trope. In fact, it is a pretty standard depiction of War God. And if you want to get more specific, we have plenty of tropes covering dislikable people, whether gods or not. This trope is basically an A+B trope—The Same But More Specific, and already covered by existing tropes. We even have Jerkass Gods. Not to mention Knight Templar and The Neidermeyer, which cover a lot of standard depictions of Ares. I see nothing to justify this trope's existence.

(I do think Madrugada's Binary Gods or something like it could be a good trope. But I also agree that Sadly Mythtaken is the supertrope we've been seeking.)

It's been over a week without much activity, so should we just make a crowner? I've not made one before, but I imagine that this would be a page action crowner with the following options about cutting the Ares trope and creating a super trope for Everybody Hates Hades. I figure another crowner might be useful for what super trope (or tropes) to make, since there's been so much discussion on that front.

• Do nothing.
• Cut Everybody Hates Ares, and do not replace it with a super trope for Everybody Hates Hades.
• Cut Everybody Hates Ares, but create a super trope for Everybody Hates Hades.
• Clean up without cutting Everybody Hates Ares or creating a super trope for Everybody Hates Hades (and Everybody Hates Ares).
• Do not cut Everybody Hates Ares, but create a super trope for Everybody Hates Hades (would also function as super trope to Everybody Hates Ares).

Or is there enough consensus for a supertrope to just make a single prop crowner concerning cutting the Ares trope?

I meant more like "do something other than these two options." I'll make the crowner in a second.

edited 11th Mar '17 7:36:08 PM by WaterBlap

"Do not cut Everybody Hates Ares, but do not create a super trope for Everybody Hates Hades (and Everybody Hates Ares) either."

That's the same as doing nothing, right?

I'd say, either do nothing, or cut BOTH Ares and Hades (and Zeus) and make the supertrope.

I would go for a cut both tropes then make a God Villain Upgrade trope for gods that were not evil but in fictional works they got upgraded to villain.

Its not exclusive at all to Ares or Hades or even the Greek religions, YHVH gets it too along with a lot of others.

edited 11th Mar '17 6:12:39 PM by Memers

crowner up and hollering for a hook.

Something is funky with the crowner. It currently says that the top option is at +5, but then says there are 10 votes for and zero against....

All the other numbers are messed up as well. "Do nothing" is marked as "+0", but the votes are stated as zero for and five against.

I'll alert the other staff about it. For now, let's focus on what the tallies should be, instead of what's been displayed.

Is this good to call cutting Everybody Hates Ares and making a supertrope for Everybody Hates Hades?