Reinvention Ideas For DC/Marvel Characters

x2 I'm still waiting on a Mandrak the Magician movie, but the closest thing we got to a live action adaption is Doctor Strange (except replace Mordo with Black Panther). Seriously, all these super hero movies and yet the original super hero doesn't get one while his allies do (one being so bad it's good and the other one just sucks).

Speaking of Strange, I think he made for by far the best film in the MCU to date, as he possesses something none of the Avengers or even the Guardians have. Namely, a purpose. His powers are directly tied to a line of duty, and while they come with considerable perks, the focus is still on their function in the world, rather than merely their effect on him as a person. In addition, they are noted to come from skill and practice, and while membership screening is a pain, the organization is still voluntary.

In that regard, I've found a considerable reverse correlation between purpose and exclusivity of power, particularly in urban fantasy fiction. On one end of the spectrum there's above described Strange, freely dealing with matters amazing and larger than life... and on the other end are Harry Potter and the like, whose genetic magic never moves past being a whimsical decoration or a status symbol, with everything supernatural being more or less a direct equivalent of something mundane. For all the mockery of modern suburbanites represented by the Dursleys, Potter himself ends up as pretty much a government clerk.... but he's a magical clerk, so that makes all the difference.

Consequently, when going for a revamp, it might be prudent to clarify just what the superheroes are supposed to do in the world, and whether there aren't better ways to do it, particularly as science marches on. Strange is a specialist handling his very own set of problems, so there's less potential for jurisdiction friction with government and military operators, unless SHIELD have their own version of the BPRD. Meanwhile, Tony Stark in the MCU donned the armor purely as a vanity project, appeasing his own guilty conscience whether the world needed him to or not. Given the lack of a proper Mandarin, his technology prowess is reviewed for its own sake, while apparently every other technologist in the world takes a massive intelligence penalty so that Tony's social status remains undisputed and exclusive... because it is purposeless.

In a way, Doctor Strange is what Iron Man should've been. There's still the idea of the callous egotist turned hero, but it also features an actual threat for him to focus his efforts on, a purpose for him to strive for. Figure that out in a character, and everything else falls into place by itself.

I understand the need for a super-hero in particular to have purpose, but it's always bugged me a bit when we've gotten super hero characters or iterations of super-hero characters who had one specific focus villain or threat they were fighting at that was more or less all they ever did. I'm not talking about Dr.Strange here; as far as he goes, I think you're right. He essentially is the authority as far as supernatural menaces on Earth are concerned, being the Sorcerer Supreme and all, so for him it makes perfect sense. I recall in the animated Iron Man from the 90's, Tony, with few digressions, fought the Mandarin or people sent by the Mandarin to mess with him. I' don't say that's what you meant, as I'm sure it's not; I think you're right in that the first Iron Man film really needed a specific threat for Tony to be reacting against. It's just way too easy for writers to turn it into an epic struggle between two titans...and nothing else.

That aspect of Harry Potter, while I liked the books, bothered me too. We're given brief glimpses of characters who have actually developed their magic to do deeper things, but those deeper things come as much as a shock to the other magic-users as they do to us. Most of these folks use their magic for nothing so interesting as to clean their houses or stir their tea (your hands's right there! Pick up the damned spoon, lazy!). One starts to feel a bit of sympathy for Grindlewald for having to live under a system that insists one possess magic but then doesn't allow one to do anything really interesting with it.

I recall Michael Chabon, in The Amazing Adventures of Cavalier and Klay pointed out that the most important thing to a super-hero was not what they could do, but why they did it.

@126: I've head that there's a Mandrake movie in the works, with Sasha Baron Cohen signed on to play Mandrake. We'll see if anything develops.

edited 3rd Feb '17 10:03:42 AM by Robbery

For a couple of middle ground comparisons, The Dresden Files still has a relatively exclusive magic system and limited agency for non-wizards, and while Harry Dresden gets more and more powerful, the stories themselves veer into angsty crime dramas straight out of a World of Darkness play session. To contrast, Monster Hunter International is loaded with all sorts of monster hunters, the only apparent requirement being to survive one's first encounter; consequently, even the most basic side-story is full of high-caliber action, and the world is as open to newcomers as it gets. Essentially, you get a sliding scale of function versus form, where the more speshul the characters get, the least they are actually able to make something out of it.

For Iron Man, I'd say it's not just the Mandarin, but the overall political climate that is no longer conductive to his attitude. Give him a slew of international opponents or corporate foes, and he's peachy; otherwise, he's got nothing to do. The MCU seems rather uncomfortable about having terrestrial powerhouses able to challenge the heroes on a long-term basis, with even Dormammu being for all intents and purposes an alien. In terms of power, every human villain so far was a joke or a weaker knock-off of the hero.

So that's a revamp project right there, I guess - bringing the Cold War heroes and villains to the modern age. Then again, given certain current trends, maybe we just have to wait another couple of years and we won't have to.

edited 3rd Feb '17 10:57:56 AM by indiana404

while I don't like a whole lot about GA Wonder Woman the Amazons powers come from training wasn't a bad idea.

Speaking of Wonder Woman, I think her clay origin could work in abstory dealing with what measure is a non human in the DCU like say Bruce or Clark wanting to kill Indigo

I think one thing I'd do on any revamp is have the super-villains come first (a bit like what's on display on Gotham). I don't think it's terribly unreasonable to imagine that the first folks to acquire super-powers might not use them to illegally enrich themselves. You'd immediately have circumstances that would necessitate the heroes existence.

Anyone got ideas for the following characters:

Deathstroke

Cheshire

Tye Longshadow

Ram

edited 5th Feb '17 2:55:01 AM by windleopard

I don't think Deathstroke really needs a revamp, his concept is simple and stable enough as it is. At most I'd make him a dedicated government assassin like he was in a recent arc, clashing with superheroes over whether to kill some dictator or terrorist leader.

Still, I have the perverse desire to pull a Harley and give the Wilsons a tongue-in-cheek sitcom series about them being a family of assassins, like a black comedy version of the Fantastic Four... and with Slade inadvertently getting his kids killed at least once per trade. Really, it's become all but a running gag even in his standard series, it's not like it can get more ridiculous.

I keep going back and forth on what Tye's powers should be. I don't really like the astral projection thing from YJ even though it does look cooler than the growing big in JLU. I was thinking I'd give him similar powers to Armor from X-Men in that his astral form is some psionic armor. Tye can change the state of it making it solid, invisible and burning though it would take some time to master this.

Or I could just turn him into another flying brick with energy powers. Not a lot of those who are Native Americans.

Cheshire... I guess I'd just make her like her JLU counterpart with the connection to Artemis Crock.

edited 6th Feb '17 8:49:30 AM by windleopard

Growing real big has never, in my opinion, been a terribly great power, at least on the printed page. It can certainly look cool in live action or animation, though.

Yeah that's how I feel too pretty much

Just don't give her any "spiritual" powers and she'll be fine. For that matter, I wonder how most superheroes would look and feel if their personalities were independent or even diametrically opposite to what their abilities would suggest. Some, like Beast and the Thing already run with this idea, but I'm curious as to how it would affect other heroes, including in battle.

For instance, imagine Johnny Storm being an ice-cold perfectionist able to produce flames with surgical precision, while Sue is a boisterous and irresponsible party girl using her invisible shields for pranks. And Wolverine as a paranoid germophobe living in mortal fear that any would might mutate him into a hideous creature.

Or from another instantly recognizable team, Beast Boy as a timid neat freak, Raven as a perky Goth girl, Starfire as a a prissy princess, Cyborg as a nature-loving hippie, and Robin as the laid-back dudebro with a genius-level intellect.

Beats their TTG personalities, at least.

edited 6th Feb '17 11:21:54 AM by indiana404

Maybe odd idea but: combine Thinker and Maximus into one character.

Maximus the Mad is important character for Inhumans but his shtick is kinda dull Mad Genius thing. They gave him some psychic powers later but that's not much improvement. Personality wise, he either raving lunatic or Loki. Also, Awesome Android would feel right at home in Attilan and would give Maximus much needed physical edge.

Mad Thinker is one of most forgotten FF villains due to being just evil scientist relying in gimmick, without any interesting connection to any characters or fascinating settings. And he doesn't even have a real name or origin. Plus, there was never really any good reason why people call him mad.

Ergo, Maximus the Mad Thinker.

For a more massive reimagining, I wonder how superhero universes can be handled with regard to the various science fiction and paranormal aspects they embody. The overall concept of differently powered individuals has been explored in series like Heroes, but other common origins and archetypes are much less explored. For instance, Spider-Man as representative of transhumanism and its benefits, with a good deal of his rogues exhibiting its negative aspects. Captain America as the military maverick super-soldier with difficulties adapting in normal society, a la Timothy Zahn's Cobra. Superman as example of the sheer unlikelihood of humanoid aliens (I'd bring back his original subtext of humanity itself possibly advancing to his level). Even the purely mystical heroes can explore the idea of human civilization interacting with forces outside the current scope of science.

In short, I wonder how, if at all, superheroes would function in a purely science fiction manner, rather than as metaphors and outlets for social issues and whatnot. Superheroes are strongly tied to Romanticism in theme, what with the idea of noble elites with power inherently above civil authority. Can Enlightenment superheroes even exist?

It's why I liked the idea of the mystical training returning for the Amazons as I do think it can open for new characters and stories in the book.

Also, I'd like to see Themyscira become a democracy again like they were in Jimenez's and Rucka's runs.

A character I'd reinvent is mr freeze. I'd finally have him do a full heel face turn and come to terms with Nora. He then would become the atoner as well as a hero with bad publicity and a good chunk of his rogues gallery would be people who were screwed over by him kind of like an extended version of that one Batman Beyond episode.

I'd love to see that. Ditto Clock King and Baby Doll as featured in BTAS, especially now that Croc is in the Suicide Squad.

Now, for my enlightened superhero idea, I'd take Will Magnus and the Metal Men, and have them star in a sort of science work com, running a lab and investigating all sorts of unusual phenomena. There'd be less emphasis on fights and more on the sheer weirdness of the encounters. And just once I'd have him say "To me, my Metal Men", which is doubly hilarious coming from a guy named Magnus.

edited 15th Feb '17 11:58:23 PM by indiana404

Reminds me of Fantastic Four in its early days.

Actually that would make for a cool crossover.

Speaking of FF, I think Reed being the lone smart guy of the team is played out. She could be a doctor/surgeon and Johnny could be their aeronautical engineer. Don't know about Ben

Ben's a test pilot and astronaut - you need to be among USAF's finest in order to qualify for either of these, let alone both. He's been considerably flanderized to the dumb muscle rather than just a guy not keen on technobabble in the heat of battle, a la Jack O'Neil.

And yeah, the early Four pretty much fit my concept of enlightenment superheroes, being scientists and explorers as much as crime-fighters, and ditching the secret identities and masochistic guilt trips. The one caveat may be Reed's long-term uselessness, but so long as it's explained by him using rare ingredients and mostly managing barely functional prototypes, it can work. Certainly beats "Sony paid me not to" as an excuse, let alone Ant-Man's explosively aggressive Luddism (And textbook Luddism actually fits the bill here, as the real reason is precisely that it would leave the guy out of a job.)

Speaking of the Four, I do love the idea of people empowered by exploration rather than mere luck. Should Marvel finally acquire the film rights, I'd love to see a full-on Whole-Plot Reference to A Space Odyssey in the inevitable reboot, sans the killer AI.

edited 16th Feb '17 1:41:29 AM by indiana404

I'll give the 2005 movie credit in that the space trip was legitimate instead of an impulsive illegal action. Reed also seems more sympathetic in that origin. Though can't say the same of Victor.

The Ultimates by Al Ewing basically seem to be what the FF initially started out as. Hell, they've made Galactus a good guy

What would you guys say to Lady Blackhawk as a Checkmate agent

Makes sense given how the Blackhawks have some espionage themes in their stories. Especially those related to Inglorious Bastards or the Howling Commandos (which is funny as IIRC the Blackhawks came up with the concept before those two teams).

So yeah, I could see a Blackhawks sub branch to CHECKMATE led by Lady Blackhawk as a potential plot point.

Maybe Connor Hawke could join too

I'd actually want to keep the idea of the Fantastic Four's trip to space being an illegal operation.

I'd go with the setup that there's a cloud of exotic matter passing through our solar system. Probes have been sent to examine it, but the cloud messes with radio transmissions, so the probes can't be controlled remotely, and no AI designed so far is sophisticated enough to navigate through the debris within the cloud and come back. So the only way to examine the cloud up close and bring back samples of the exotic matter is with a manned expedition, but the world's space programs balk at the danger and expense of such an operation.

Reed and Sue would be scientists working for NASA or a NASA-esque organization who are upset about the lack of action being taken to study this phenomenon (and with the world's declining interest in space exploration overall), especially as this cloud is due to pass out of our solar system. If someone doesn't explore it now, it'll be forever beyond our reach.

So the two of them decide to build their own rocket and go and examine the cloud themselves. It'd be built partly out of stuff Reed and Sue can buy with money they've gotten from various patents, but other parts would be discretely stolen from work, plus some stuff donated by, in Reed's words, "a friend in the Latverian government". They'd recruit Reed's old college buddy Ben Grimm, an air force pilot with some astronaut experience, to pilot the rocket. And they'd recruit Sue's teenage brother Johnny to help with construction because, quite frankly, they've got no other option. There's no way just three of them could get the rocket ready in time for launch, but they can't trust most of their colleagues with a secret like this. Since Johnny is Sue's brother, they can trust him not to rat them out, and the fact that he makes modifications to cars he uses for drag racing means he has some engineering experience. Promising him a spot on the rocket is just the price they have to pay to get him to accept.

Once they launch their rocket and enter the space cloud, the expected Fantastic Four transformation occurs.

I really like it!