" But then the movie killed him off and we are emotionally manipulated to feel as if it is US that were wrong for hating him at the beginning??""
Not really is ust that as it happen with many emocionally cut us men, media expect us to loved the tiny moment where they display emotions because....well, they displayed it, as sort of "reward for minimal effort".
This is true in how those emotion are display in a letter, is pretty much the ultimate tough guy display of sensibility: after he did is badass thing, in impersonal way toward someone so we can feel good about this person really feel but never expresses.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Hopper's character change is not the only problem the season 3 writing has.
Arguably, what TobiasDrake said a page ago about how "the show might be in danger of losing its tone" is true. Not just for what he said about the genre clashes, but for something else he didn't mention. Which is that in season 3 (and to a degree, season 2), it feels at points like the writers are more concerned about shipping couples than they are about literally anything else. Almost every character is being paired with someone else, as if girls and boys can't possibly be "just friends", and nearly all of the romances are half-heartedly executed (due to the amount of cast juggling) and don't really add much to the plot. Not only that, but a fair number of them involve characters who, in my opinion, are a little too young to be couples. Also, the lack of this season completely ignoring all familial relationships was very jarring. I'm not asking for a long, drawn out scene of chick flick moments between siblings, but a little acknowledgement that they share the same parents would’ve been nice, and nowhere is this better shown than with Will and Jonathan, and with Mike and Nancy.
Sure, finding a significant other in life is very important, and yes, our media is guilty of prioritizing romance above everything else even in places where it makes no sense whatsoever. But romance is not the only thing that should matter to someone, and it's definitely not something that should be the focus of a horror show. Often it's there just for the sake of having a romantic subplot because God forbid a show exist without it. Too often romance doesn't add to the plot at best, and at worst it actively adds plot hurdles that messes up the pacing and create situations that really need not exist. Shipping characters mid-series, and doing so when it's not progressing characterization and the plot, can also make it really difficult to maintain deep and compelling characters. And there usually isn't much "payoff" in these cases once the day is saved other than "things just get a bit better for the couples".
I should note that I’m not opposed to romance in serious shows, but it should be because it developed naturally, not because the writers decided everyone needs to be paired up. For instance, in Avatar: The Last Airbender and the Harry Potter franchise (both the books and the movies), characters do not get shipped until the very, very end, and the plot avoids the romantic entanglements. Within Stranger Things, the only romance that I feel developed naturally is Jonathan and Nancy, and Charlie Heaton and Natalia Dyer's chemistry does a lot of work in selling it. Nancy spent time with Jonathan in season 1 investigating the demogorgon and the disappearances of Barb and Will, and although attracted to each other, she stuck with Steve, trying to deny her attraction to Jonathan until the fight at the Halloween party, then they worked together to get closure for Barb, Murray points out the obvious, and you know the rest. In season 3, they had a few nice moments, like the argument about them not understanding each other's background felt real and the reconciliation felt genuine between them, and that badass scene of them fighting back and killing the two flayed Post staffers in the hospital. If anything, I think these two should have been given more time and development, especially Jonathan. Nancy at least gets to take action, and she had her own storyline the first half of season 3, which addressed relevant issues, and she had a great scene with her mother, and Jonathan gets nothing outside of his relationship with Nancy.
Steve and Robin becoming purely friends was great as well. I believe I read somewhere that Joe Keery and Maya Hawke insisted that Robin and Steve should remain platonic friends, which is honestly for the best.
With the other romances, it seemed to me that the relationships between Max and Lucas as well as Eleven and Mike basically stemmed from their bravery in saving their respective "damsels in distress", which is an old cliche. I think a lot of the Mike / Eleven stuff should've been removed, especially the kissing scene. And with Max / Lucas, well, both act stupid, she acts almost aggressive and has a really poor feminist attitude, especially evident when she is giving Eleven relationship advice and Lucas's advice is just as bad. The shit advice at least is realistic, but we could have been done away with the whole mess from the start and had all that screentime from both romances reallocated to learning more about the Upside Down, or better yet, fleshing out the Russians a bit more so they're more than just stereotypes.note
While they make clear Hopper and Joyce may have been dating in high school (and that there was a triangle between the two of them and Bob), they'd have worked so much better in season 3 if they were single parents who have a close platonic relationship built upon the trauma they have shared, allowing them to give each other great advice without any expectations of them sleeping with one another. Turning Hopper into a jealous aggressive twat because Joyce didn't meet him for the "not a date" (because she had a legitimate excuse to go to Mr. Clarke's) was ridiculous and led to him feeling defaced from the Hopper of Seasons 1 and 2.
Of course, I think there's another reason why all there's all this romantic pairing going on in season 3 that we didn't see in season 1. It's that the Duffers are trying too hard to please the fans in Season 3, to the point they don’t actually do what they set out to do. This already was going on in season 2. Remember that Nancy's #JusticeForBarb storyline was the result of social media campaigning. After season 2, Steve became a big fan favorite and so they give Steve more screen-time than his character honestly warranted. Likewise, Jonathan is not an especially popular character, so they don't bother to give him a story at all beyond being Nancy's sidekick. This is why Season 1 is still the best season by far when it comes to storywriting (and that's true of most season 1s in general): it was written in a bubble and gave all the characters equal consideration rather than trying to pander to audiences' likes and dislikes.
Edited by dmcreif on Oct 13th 2019 at 6:19:27 AM
The cold never bothered me anyway
I think romance is because the age were kids are intersting in those stuff, the stuff of puberty and all that jazz, sure they are young to have couples but that hardly matter more as the chararter wanting because they are in the age.
Max and lucas feel realistic in a highly drama world of teenagers, they are couple who goes on and off and no, that is not toxic if they are not, is just mean they are not super serious about it.
About the upside down being flesh...meh, is monster world, the russian need devolping but that is more on Hopper and joyce side plot than anything else, Mike and Eleven was going for the start who that it.
"Remember that Nancy's #Justice For Barb storyline was the result of social media campaigning."
I think is in part of that and duffer brother realize that...yeah, Barb dying and nobody giving a shit was pretty weak part of the whole ideal, I dont think they have plan something for then if you ask me.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Frankly they could’ve cut the whole "scoops troop" out of season 3, and it wouldn’t have affected the overall plot. But fans loved it so there will likely be more of them in season 4, while Jonathan and Nancy get shoved into the background. Lucas will probably be pushed off more to the side as well. Maybe Max now too as Billy is gone and the Duffers are bad at writing for a female character not in connection with a man, and Eleven is in another place.
What they really need to do is trim down the fat. There's too many characters and it's really starting to show. It's become bloated and bursting apart at the seams. The magic of the first season was due to the close knit dynamics of the core characters, who've now been expanded into an ensemble that makes Infinity War green with envy. Once interesting characters with initial promise have been relegated to the background to accommodate the new additions to the cast, then given unsatisfactory subplots just to give them something to do (because, frankly, it shouldn't be THAT hard to give all the characters the right amount of focus and development. I think there are a lot of interesting angles to their relationships that could work if they'd stop introducing new characters who demand their own plotlines.) The characters' roles should be obvious, but when the core ones are having to find something to do, it just tells me that there's too many of them for the writers to work with. And I'm worried this is going to be a problem going forward for this show.
This has been most obvious with Jonathan. It wasn’t great in season 2, but in season 3 he basically had nothing going on for him. In season 2, Max had an okay running start, but in season 3 she got no real character focus even though her stepbrother was the main human villain. Lucas has probably always been a little sidelined, but especially in season 3 where he basically turned into a Coke ad. Stuff like this leads to things like there being almost no Byers family content in season 3. No Wheeler family content for the last two seasons. They boosted Erica to main cast status and yet we didn’t even get more Sinclair content. They have to divide the groups more and more, in an attempt to give each character more time, but they still can’t manage to do that based on some stuff in season 3.
So it makes sense if some of us worry about them adding another main recurring character when we’ve barely gotten enough time with some of our other main characters. If it's someone like Dr. Owens, that’s not as much as an issue. They’re characters have purpose and are very important, but since they aren’t “main” characters like a Max or a Robin, they aren’t squeezing as much development time from other characters. They exist to push the plot forward or boost our existing characters. Supporting characters. But adding yet another Max or Robin would be… too much. We don’t need another party kid. We don’t need another teen. They should stick to what we have for now and keep new characters in supporting roles.
Edited by dmcreif on Nov 2nd 2019 at 10:16:44 AM
The cold never bothered me anyway
I've given some thought to it, and I think one way that the season 3 writing could've been improved is that the Joyce/Hopper and Jonathan/Nancy stories should've been combined.
This not only would've tightened the narrative, but it also would've fixed several problems a few people have complained about in season 3. One, it would've fixed Hopper's characterization as Jonathan and Nancy would be quicker to call him on his behavior, and a lot more willingly than Joyce, with Jonathan likening the parallels between Hopper's new attitude and what he, Will and Joyce went through with Lonnie. This would've made Hopper realize in introspection how out of line he was getting mad at Joyce for blowing off their date to go see Mr. Clarke, and that he should be a better role model towards Eleven and Mike. Two, it would've given Jonathan more screentime with his mother, something that was also lacking in season 3. And three, it would've given Nancy a much more compelling thread for her character arc.
Here's how I'd combine the two arcs:
After Nancy and Jonathan find Mrs. Driscoll eating her fertilizer in her basement, they call the ambulance. Once the ambulance arrives and Mrs. Driscoll is taken to the hospital, accompanied by Callahan, Nancy and Jonathan decide that if they're going to run something by Tom about this story, they're gonna need some help from an expert: Hopper. Hopper just makes perfect sense to be a mentor to Nancy, because he's a former big city cop, and he's a dogged investigator who knows how to connect the dots as repeatedly shown throughout seasons 1 and 2. And he'd know a thing or two about how you don't run a story without credible sources to back up your claims, because police detectives and journalists have a lot in common, the only difference being one has a badge and the other doesn't.
So Jonathan and Nancy seek out Hopper, and drive up to the old Hawkins lab at the same time that Hopper and Joyce show up. After pooling all of their information together, they split up to search the place. Nancy goes with Hopper, and Jonathan goes with Joyce. I'd do it this way because Nancy has shown proficient use with firearms against the Demodogs of seasons 1 and 2 and even volunteered to be Hopper's backup during the showdown here last October. This also gives Jonathan and Joyce the opportunity to have a mother-son character moment. There's a lot of emotional weight coming back here for them, since this was the place where Bob died, Bob was practically the dad that Jonathan and Will wished they had instead of Lonnie, and Joyce is considering moving out of Hawkins (this fixes the fact that we never saw Joyce talk onscreen with her sons about moving).
The character moment is cut short when Hopper and Nancy are ambushed by Grigori. Grigori puts up a good fight with them both, but it's not as one sided since he has to take on two people at once. Hopper is less beaten, as Nancy manages to get hold of a gun and scares Grigori off before he can land the last blow on Hopper. Grigori gets away, despite Jonathan and Joyce attempting to give chase in the Byers' car.
For Jonathan and Nancy, it's a big deal as they realize now that the Russians are present in Hawkins, maybe trying to get into the Upside Down or worse, finding Eleven (let's assume Nancy is aware that Eleven is Mike's girlfriend). Before they can do anything about their new leads, they're fired by the flayed Tom. But Jonathan and Nancy are convinced that Tom is in on it too, but for the wrong reasons. They think that he's firing them because he's in league with the Russians, unaware of what Billy and Heather had done to Tom the night before. Nonetheless, they aren't giving up on finding the truth. They go to City Hall to convene with Joyce and Hopper again, who are there to talk to Larry Kline since Hopper remembers seeing Grigori coming out of Larry's office. Once again, I'd place Nancy alongside Hopper as he interrogates Larry. When Larry threatens to put in a call to Tom at the Post, Nancy laughs, “You really think that’s gonna do anything? Seeing as I’ve been fired already.” But Larry turns his ire on Nancy, and decides to insult her obsessive pursuit of justice for Barb. Nancy snaps and breaks Larry's nose. They both pin Larry to his office table (Hopper holding Nancy down while Nancy sticks Larry's ring finger in the pencil sharpener) and interrogate him to get him to reveal what the Russians are doing at Starcourt.
Joyce and Hopper take Larry back to his house to get the property records of the lots the Russians are buying up. While this happens, Nancy and Jonathan go to Starcourt Mall to talk to Steve, as while Jonathan hasn't quite 100% forgiven Steve for breaking his camera, they know about his friendship with Dustin, that he works at Scoops Ahoy and he may have noticed something unusual. To their surprise, Steve believes every word of what they say, and tells them about the activity he witnessed last night with Robin and Dustin. Jonathan and Nancy reconvene with Joyce and Hopper, and they pool their information. Jonathan is the one who goes to the hospital to check on Mrs. Driscoll, and witnesses her being activated by the Mind Flayer.
Meanwhile, Nancy and Joyce go with Hopper to check out the properties from Larry's list, and discover Alexei. Since Robin is out of contact, the four decide that they need to have someone to take Alexei to Murray Bauman so he can translate. Nancy and Jonathan are the most acquainted with Murray, since he helped them get the truth out about Barb last year, and it was in his house that they made love for the first time, so they insist on going together. Hopper offers to go with them, since he's concerned for the possibility that Grigori will be after them, after some back and forth between the three of them. Joyce elects to remain in Hawkins to look after Will (for obvious reasons) and Eleven (at Hopper's request).
So Nancy, Jonathan and Hopper make their way out to Murray's, while Joyce remains behind in Hawkins and talks with Will, Mike, Lucas, Eleven and Max. Through them, she learns about what's happened to Billy, and remembering what happened with Will last year, suspects that the Mind Flayer is back and is creating an army. With Hopper unavailable, Joyce gets in touch with Callahan and they go back to the hospital to check on Mrs. Driscoll. Unfortunately, she's not there when the two enter her room. Joyce and Callahan are then attacked by the flayed Tom and Bruce, and Joyce succeeds at killing both of them, though Callahan is badly wounded and has to be hospitalized.
Nancy, Jonathan and Hopper get Alexei to Murray's place. Along the way, there's some character growth for the three as Jonathan talks with Nancy about Joyce wanting to move, while Hopper tries to give Nancy some words of advice on how being a journalist is no different from being a cop. The scene at Murray's is slightly different. Murray can't help but tease Nancy and Jonathan about last year, much to their embarrassment and to a bemused face from Hopper. Nonetheless, they interrogate Alexei and get him to reveal that the Russians are attempting to access the Upside Down and that they are opening a portal beneath Starcourt. Jonathan and Nancy remember what Steve told them, and worrying for their respective brothers' safety, Jonathan insists that they return to Hawkins immediately.
Meanwhile, back in Hawkins, Joyce determines that the Mind Flayer is coming for Eleven and for Will. Will senses the Mind Flayer approaching and it attacks them before they flee, wounding Eleven. They rush Eleven to a safe place where they can hide her and treat her wounds. Dustin contacts them over walkie-talkie to try and explain the situation with Steve before he loses battery power. Through some process of elimination, they figure out where Dustin is and make their way to the mall.
Hopper's group, made of himself, Jonathan, Nancy, Murray and Alexei, make their way to the fairgrounds in Hawkins in an effort to search for Nancy’s and Jonathan’s brothers as well as Joyce, but they are spotted by Kline, who alerts the Russians. Grigori almost manages to get the drop on Alexei, but Nancy shoots and wounds him in his shoulder just before he can fire. The bullet is not enough to kill Grigori, but enough that his shot misfires and Alexei survives. The group catch up to Larry, where they learn that the agents are looking for the children at the mall, and Nancy and Jonathan get the joint satisfaction of beating the shit out of Larry. At the mall, Eleven's group arrives in time to stop the Russians from shooting Dustin's group.
The final battle then goes down mostly the same. Nancy and Jonathan's car fu with Billy still happens. But there are a few areas where I'd make some more changes. Namely, while the others distract the Mind Flayer by attacking it with fireworks, Nancy and Jonathan get to beat the shit out of Heather, to get back at her for flaying her dad (their former boss), while Steve, Robin, Eleven and Max fight with Billy. Eleven is able to awaken Billy's mind from his memories, weakening the Flayer's control enough that Steve is able to bash Billy's skull in with his nail bat, allowing Max to deliver the finishing blow and giving them both the satisfaction of payback for the season 2 finale where Billy almost beat Steve to death. (And while I'm at it, have Max feel no sadness over Billy's death, but instead relief that he's dead)
As for closing the gate to defeat the Mind Flayer, I change this part of the battle just a bit. Namely, Alexei is by Joyce's side while Hopper is fighting Grigori in the gate room. Nancy and Jonathan come to their aid after defeating Heather. Hopper fights with Grigori in the gate room as the others prepare to shut down the gate. Hopper throws Grigori into the machine, causing it to go haywire and block his exit.
There are a couple possible endings: 1) Nancy, Jonathan and Alexei somehow manage to rescue him, and Alexei has to switch places with Hopper. Joyce shuts down the gate, Alexei choosing to sacrifice his own life in the process of taking down the project that he'd worked on. Or 2) Hopper still sacrifices himself, and Alexei defects to Dr. Owens when he arrives with the cavalry. In either ending, Murray buys out the Hawkins Post and rehires Nancy. In ending 1, he also rehires Jonathan as the paper's photographer, while Nancy divides her time between writing stories and being Hopper's reserve deputy. In ending 2, the Byers still move away.
"allowing Max to deliver the finishing blow and giving them both the satisfaction of payback for the season 2 finale where Billy almost beat Steve to death. (And while I'm at it, have Max feel no sadness over Billy's death, but instead relief that he's dead)"
Sorry, sorry, I know you have and axe to bite with Billy but be quite blunt, this the same fan service we have with barb, aside of giving satisfaction to a kid and teenager for someone else death, doing so in the ending while everything else is happen would feel off, there is also two things 1) Billy is not even there anymore(which is why his redemption dosent work) he have being pretty much a meat puppet and so far its clear he is not enjoy that one bit and 2) is father, who is not much better is getting away, having her feeling relief would make her as killer(which is already problematic with Hopper guning guys left and right) and pretty cold by killing somoone who is not there.
Other than that the rest is good.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Of course, even without combining the Jancy and Jopper storylines, the scene where Hopper interrogates Larry really should've gone down differently. It's one moment when the show seems to validate Hopper's initial dickishness, in the precise moment when it's at its very worst. He's threatening to torture a suspect, and instead of it failing catastrophically and Joyce being horrified at what a psycho her friend is being, Joyce actually helps him do it, and it succeeds in moving their investigation forward. It sort of blunts the argument that Hopper is in a bad place emotionally if being in that emotional place ends up helping our heroes rather than hurting them!
It would make more sense if Joyce was placed in the office alongside Hopper, and she stepped in and stopped Hopper from torturing Kline, and then taken him aside and said to him, "Cool it! Beating him up isn't going to get any answers out of him! He's just gonna tell you whatever he thinks will get you to stop. You go outside and let me talk to him." Then the investigation moves forward because Larry decides he can trust Joyce over his lunatic police chief. You could still have the same "Hey, we make a good team" follow-up, with Hopper insisting that he was just playing bad cop so Joyce could play the good cop, but you wouldn't have it look like Hopper was right all along to be a torture-happy maniac.
And no matter what, Larry really should have made good on his threat to send stories of Hopper's misconduct to the media. It would've been very much in character for him to do so.
The cold never bothered me anyway
That video was totally right, that drawing too much from 80's characterizations really damaged Hopper, especially when it came to the relationship with Joyce and to how he handled the situation with El and Mike. Some of the stuff that TV and movie characters did to women in 1980's media would not be acceptable today. Yelling back and forth, threatening to kill each other, chasing each other around with weapons? Stuff that was more comical back then is not very comical now.
The El and Mike situation was also one of these. It was certainly within Hopper's rights to be concerned with how fast El and Mike's relationship was advancing. They're only 14 years old and making out on El's bed? The three inch rule and making sure things don't get too heated is an appropriate parental thing to do. Where Hopper fell short in this regard is that he did not follow up his rules with proper back and forth with El and Mike. He didn't discuss his concerns, or teach El about safety, or give her advice, or whatever else, because this show was drawing too much from the 80's, a time when talking about his feelings was not "manly" and a real father threatens his daughter's boyfriend instead. Because that'll totally fix the situation! Not. The fact that El later agreed with Hopper's actions toward Mike is messed up and stupid.
I'd have been fine with this if the show had appropriately cast Hopper's actions in a negative light. I'd have been fine if Joyce was allowed to tell Hopper how messed up he was, and that he should apologize and make things right and actually TALK to them like he promised. And I'd have been fine if the show were willing to let other characters call Hopper out on his bad behavior, instead of sweeping it all under the rug with his sacrifice.
That said, some of Hopper's derailment might've been the result of the writers being more focused on fan service than storytelling. What story we got was manufactured to serve the fan service. Such as big forced relationship drama for the Mileven break up so the writers can build towards shipper pleasing "I love you" declarations rather than unpack the real issues in the relationship. Or the contrived reason for why Erica has to be a main character.
Or the contrived drama so that Dustin doesn't share his radio info with his closest friends, but instead goes to Steve so the writers can please fans of the Steve & Dustin duo. I don't necessarily think that Dustin and Steve (moreso Dustin) have gotten development, just more screen time. And Steve is basically becoming the Fonzie of Stranger Things, a secondary character who should've stayed secondary, but the writers are pushing him into lead status to pander to his popularity. It's becoming a bit unbelievable for comic relief characters to be given so much screentime. This pairing also got a little old this season, along with the way they grouped the characters, where they didn't interact enough with others that it became stale and static after a while. And while the new characters do interact with existing original characters, there's a pattern of the writers seemingly getting bored with those original characters, where they use exposition shortcuts rather than really fleshing them out. In season 1, everyone got equal development and were great. But now in season 3, I feel that the writers don't seem to be able to balance all of the characters, and this definitely has to do with focusing too much on Dustin and Steve without really giving them any genuine conflict.
Them reducing Nancy and Jonathan's roles and not even daring to mention Kali's existence just affirms the Duffers' desperation to pander to fan popularity. They give us an excessive amount of what fans liked before and give short shrift to characters that have been less popular.
Edited by dmcreif on Nov 21st 2019 at 12:02:57 PM
The cold never bothered me anyway
I disagree with steve, of all the mishanding of this season, steve was really good and have more devoptment in how to deal with her friend, declaring is feelings and then acepting she is a lesbian(something 80 wont happen, ever), jonathan on the other hand have being reduce to pretty much nancy lackie, being there because nancy is there.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Steve and Dustin are great characters. However, they barely have any inner conflict to the point of being flanderized to a few of their noteworthy traits. They also had more screentime than necessary in season 3, which could have gone to Will, Jonathan and Lucas. Their interactions in season 2 were fine, because it was about people who couldn't be more different teaming up. But in season 3, them becoming real friends, to the point of even implying that Steve is now closer to Dustin than the boys just went too far and is unnatural to how the characters have been established.
I also don't like how Steve suddenly lost his social skills and became dorky when it comes to girls. Mind you, I don't mind that there has been an evolution of the character, but they should never forget where he came from. Because I haven't forgotten that Steve in seasons 1 and 2 was an asshole and a bully.
I've not forgotten his stalker tendencies: he multiple times climbs up to Nancy’s window unannounced and spies on her (and Jonathan) through it like a literal Peeping Tom. And from what he saw - the grave grave sin of Nancy sitting fully clothed next to another boy on her bed - he decides, “Alright, I’m gonna slutshame her all over town”. I've not forgotten about how pushy Steve is in general with Nancy, not hearing a "no", it has to be several for him to get it. Or how sinister and up-close he gets into her personal space as an intimidation tactic against her when she confronts him about the slutshaming. And what fucked up things he says to Jonathan about Will and his family - including homophobic taunting, remember that? What a nice guy. Also he never apologized for any of this.
And in season 2, I haven't forgotten how Steve doesn't care about or pay attention to Nancy’s emotional state and then directly disregards her drunken meltdown, ignoring how the things she said shows that a year’s worth of pent-up grief and guilt had been slowly eating away from her inside until now spilling over, laying bare how she was an emotional wreck and hadn’t been allowed to deal with the feelings in part due to the inadequate support system he was being. Steve ignores all that for the for him much more burning question: she must verify her feelings for him, and validate him. To top it all off, Steve leaves her stranded at that party, near-blackout drunk, around a bunch of similarly drunken guys, which is incredibly dangerous, harmful and careless, and it's only thanks to Jonathan being there to take her home (of his own volition, not because Steve asked him) that nothing bad happens to her.
And he shows later in season 2 that he hasn't really developed much emotionally since season 1 as he comes to win Nancy back with one big “romantic” gesture, all the while muttering to himself that he has no idea what he should be sorry about. He hasn’t reflected on how his emotionally unavailable behavior to Nancy for a year has been a problem, much less how him at the party directly ignoring her feelings and mental breakdown was a problem. He’s still his possessive jealous self from when he slutshamed Nancy a year earlier. Hell, he advises Dustin to emotionally manipulate girls (”Show ‘em you don’t care!” etc).
" including homophobic taunting, remember that? What a nice guy. Also he never apologized for any of this"
Does jonathan apologies over spying nancy? or how much the two try to get into the other skin? steve buy jonathan a new camara as way to apologies, is not the best way? sure but is how many mens does, in fact look how steve and jonathan dont interact that much afterward because after all is said and done, the two are not friends, is just they way men were and still are.
"Nancy’s emotional state and then directly disregards her drunken meltdown, ignoring how the things she said shows that a year’s worth of pent-up grief and guilt had been slowly eating away from her inside until now spilling over, laying bare how she was an emotional wreck and hadn’t been allowed to deal with the feelings in part due to the inadequate support system he was being."
Im going to be somewhat harsh on this but a some point, you cant be responsable for someone inner tumoil of the person dosent reveal it, specially since to some point she pretty much said(drunk, no less) that she dosent love him and her relationship is a farce, something she isnt capable of saying to him to is face until the worst posible moment, whie steve answer to that is bullshit, I cant be surprised of it.
Let not forget later in season 2 Nancy pretty berates Jonathan for not "showing up", even when jonathan understandably give her space after what he did and by the tension between the two is clearly she already have feeling for him between the year of season 1 and 2 and yet she said nothing, expecting him to do the first move, not to said she is selfish but she can be a little bit self absorbed as well as is show in season 3 when she dismiss Jonathan concerns.
"In the span of like a half hour he goes from being the ringleader of the bullies and saying/thinking “Go to hell Nancy Wheeler” (plus all the vile shit he says about Jonathan) to defending Nancy when all that happened in between is that he got his ass kicked when he provoked a fight with Jonathan."
Because the point of Steve is that he isn't that tough bad guy(which is pretty much is character archetype) but rather a blowhard who try to hard to be cool, is friend are bad(they are pretty evil Steve and Nancy) him washing the sign he wrote is more a proof he have some standard and hell, you can see that earlier, he try to seduce Nancy but when she make clear they are going to study he accepted and study with her(more or less), is not surprise the show introduce billy who IS a bad guy type to the bone.
"Season 3 Steve is so far removed from Season 1 Steve, or even Season 2 Steve."
Is that a bad thing? I mean, more of the cast is pretty damn static or in case of hopper, have character regression and even derailment, in case of Steve, you mention he try to give Dustin typical 80 advice to be cool, not only it dosent help but the one thing it stick is how Steve confess to him that he use a girl product for is hair(which by the time is pretty big stuff), by season 3 he is drop the cool act and is now a full dork, combined with the fact the girl she is working seen do dont like him and is smarter than him.
Granted, I will said the writer have become fond of pushing Steve quite a lot and is become something of a running gag: he got punch by is "friend", then by billy in season 2 and finally by the soviets(look her friend isn't even touched at all) but see him interact with her even when is clear he have no chances is huge grow for him, better than nancy who is just doing the same stuff as the previous 2 season and Jonathan become a wallflower for all he matters.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
- Does jonathan apologies over spying nancy? or how much the two try to get into the other skin? steve buy jonathan a new camara as way to apologies, is not the best way? sure but is how many mens does, in fact look how steve and jonathan dont interact that much afterward because after all is said and done, the two are not friends, is just they way men were and still are.
Uh, Jonathan DID apologize for the camera incident. Nancy brought it up in the dark room, and again in the forest. And it's clear he apologized because he respected her boundaries ever since and never did anything like that again.
Edited by dmcreif on Dec 7th 2019 at 1:51:50 PM
The cold never bothered me anyway
If we're to be honest, the bad writing in season 3 affected all types of character relationships - from romantic, to friendships, to family bonds (some of which were non existent; and I'm looking at the Byers in this case).
Jonathan and Nancy spent half the seasons with their siblings and they barely even spoke to each other. You couldn't even tell they were related.
Max and Billy didn't interact yet the show tried to pretend they had a better and closer relationship than last season. You have to actually show that happen in order for me to have any emotional investment in their relationship.
Related to this issue was the lack of more intimate, emotional moments on the show period. Jonathan and Nancy almost died in the hospital, and we see no fall out from that. There is no scene to show how hurt or traumatized they are. No Byers family scene of them actually talking about moving out of Hawkins. We don't really get to see the fallout of Hopper's death for El or how everyone dealt with the aftermath of the battle at the mall. We didn't get resolutions to things like Will's destroying of Castle Byers and his feeling of disconnect from his friends. I feel almost no emotional attachment to the characters by the end of the season because the show almost exclusively invested in the action and comedy side of the story.
Edited by dmcreif on Dec 14th 2019 at 2:43:26 PM
The cold never bothered me anyway
I cannot said much of other, but in case of nancy and jonathan is because they have being already exposed to this kind of bullshit, they are harder for it, so being tramutized is barely a meh, im not annoyed that the fact another human being(nancy bosses) was killed by her and barely get a reaction, jerkness aside that need to have some "wait, what?" moments.
Which is why billy redemption dosent work because billy is already dead by the moment the mind flayer got him.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
The sad thing about a character like Jonathan Byers is that he's not a memeable character. Which seems to be the driving factor in if you get screen time in the show at this point.
It's a real shame, Jonathan has the potential to have the best arc/storyline from all the main characters. His season 1 arc was really well done. Despite not being memeable, his smack down of Nancy about “rebelling” is still the most effective burn,note compared to the over-the-top attempts in season 3.note Nancy gets a bit more wisecracks than Jonathan, but honestly both characters deserve so much better.
In Season 1, their storyline was well done and genuinely engaging. In seasons 2 and 3, they’ve been given the weakest material, and it’s sad that they are marketed so much less than the other characters. I mean, obviously some characters will be more popular, but they have all the ingredients to be great characters in their own rights. They started out good in Season 2 as well. Nancy’s guilt about Barb in the first couple of episodes culminating in her breakup with Steve actually gave her some really good scenes. While that's going on, Jonathan had some good character scenes like his and Will talking about how no one understood him (where he tells Will to look at the positives of being regarded as a freak), navigating the Halloween party (and driving Nancy home), and the scene where he comes home and sees Will and Joyce asleep. Even Jonathan’s scenes with Will, trying to remind Will of who he is alongside Mike and Joyce were really good.
It breaks my heart to see that with every season Jonathan gets reduced to an even smaller role. He is basically Nancy's sidekick now and their storyline is never the most interesting. Even though it had some good moments. Despite Nancy’s workplace sexism storyline being horribly over the top and Jonathan mostly being ignored, the scene where they fought over the issues faced respectively about sexism and financial constraints was an effective one. It really deserved more fleshing out.note The good thing is Nancy and Jonathan actually acknowledge their behavior being wrong to each other in the hospital (being more healthy than Mileven, Lumax and Jopper). Their goodbye to each other was rather touching too. While their characters deserved to have well constructed storylines in season 3, at least their relationship wasn’t cheapened, which is some relief I suppose.
But the dynamics with their families need more exploration. I miss the family dynamics of both the Wheelers and the Byers, and how they were big contrasts in every way (money, relationship, sibling dynamics) it was interesting, and something I was very eager to seeing the show exploring further, but they seem to be straying farther and farther from that with every season.
On the Byers side, the family unit will get a little bigger with the addition of El. This is a golden opportunity for Jonathan to be a big brother mentor to not only Will, but Eleven too, and give both of them advice on growing pains. Plus, if spookiness ever comes knocking at the door, the three of them plus Joyce could form an investigative trio. Jonathan has quite an eye for photography, so he could once again put that to good use. Plus they could follow up on that potent moment in season 2 where Jonathan recounted the origin of Castle Byers. How it began as one of Will’s drawings, before they decided to build the real thing. Will tore down Castle Byers in Season 3, so maybe wherever they've moved in season 4, they'll build a new treehouse modeled after the rainbow-colored spaceship Joyce mentions that Will once drew with all his crayons.
With the Wheelers, Natalia Dyer has said in interviews that she would like to partner with her on-screen mother more for scenes, so maybe that will be a thing? Who knows. Karen Wheeler's backstory would be interesting, because despite being clueless about her kids’ activities, her lock picking indicates some street smarts and she must have some of the competence/intelligence that Mike and Nancy have demonstrated. As for Nancy and her brother well, sure, Nancy's a bit distant from Mike, but in the past they at least acknowledged and cared for each other. In season 3, Mike watches his sister getting attacked by a monster and doesn't even flinch! He never even goes over to check if she is alright (only Jonathan does), which is just weird! And while they are distant, Mike and Nancy have a lot in common. They are both freakishly smart and went through similar traumas, with friends going missing and suffering severe consequences from the events in season one. They are the only ones in the Wheeler house who know the truth about what happened, but they never think to check on each other. It is a little unrealistic, and season 4 better take steps to reverse that.
The cold never bothered me anyway
- Because the point of Steve is that he isn't that tough bad guy(which is pretty much is character archetype) but rather a blowhard who try to hard to be cool, is friend are bad(they are pretty evil Steve and Nancy) him washing the sign he wrote is more a proof he have some standard and hell, you can see that earlier, he try to seduce Nancy but when she make clear they are going to study he accepted and study with her(more or less), is not surprise the show introduce billy who IS a bad guy type to the bone.
From what I've heard, the real reason Nancy got back together with Steve at the end of season 1, and was still with him at the start of season 2, is that the Duffers liked Steve so much they didn’t want to show that Nancy had broken up with Steve after his heroics in 1x08, they needed a way to keep Steve around and Nancy was his only tie to the story. He was supposed to be written out after season 1, so they didn't have a story planned for him.
They’ve said themselves in Beyond Stranger Things that they didn’t know what to do with Steve after his relationship with Nancy ended but didn’t want to leave him on the down note of being dumped, so they randomly threw him together with Dustin and the meme stuff happened. Now that audiences responded to it they’re desperate to clamor onto that and so have to keep writing for Steve. But the problem is, that it’s hard. Because guess what, the reason the Duffers didn’t know what to do with Steve after his relationship with Nancy ended is because he had filled his role in the plot. His original purpose was just to be the jerkass boyfriend of Nancy. So then there’s nowhere to go with the character after he’s filled that purpose. That’s the point where you're supposed to write a recurring character out of the show. Not promote him to main cast and quickly write a cheap memetastic plotline for him.
And no matter how you look at it, Steve's Heel–Face Turn was executed in a way that just reeks of, “we didn’t plan on this so this isn’t well-thought through but we like this Joe Keery guy a lot, so here’s a hasty rewrite to keep him around”. In the span of like a half hour he goes from calling Nancy a slut all over town and telling her to go to hell, and saying all kinds of horrendous shit to Jonathan, to out of nowhere suddenly being tired of being an asshole and want to redeem himself? He literally goes from “Go to hell Nancy.” to “She actually cares about stuff, she’s not miserable like you” for no real reason? When all that happened in between is he got his ass kicked. Suddenly it’s just Tommy and Carol’s bad influence that made Steve bad? Yet at the same time he was King Steve and the leader of their little gang. There’s no real motivation for him to suddenly change attitude. And then he’s just a deus ex machina in the final episode which completely undercuts Nancy and Jonathan’s whole storyline. They spend the season fighting this monster but in the end it’s completely undercut by deus ex Steve stumbling in there and hitting the monster with a bat and suddenly that works. It’s super-frustrating to watch, spending the whole season following these two teens trying to fight or trap a monster and when it’s time for the final showdown…they just use a deus ex machina device.
What would've made that part of season 1 better would be if there was no Steve after the alley fight, when he’s played out his role in the plot, and Nancy and Jonathan fought the Demogorgon on their own instead of undercutting it with deus ex machina Steve tumbling in there. They wouldn’t be interrupted on the couch, and Nancy would give Jonathan his Christmas gift as in the show, but she’d be single at the end of the season. Then they’d slowburn into a relationship in season 2 (but in a better written way than in season 2 where they got the short straw at times).
The cold never bothered me anyway
There's a lot of ways that other things in season 3 could've been fixed to allow them to tell roughly the story that we ultimately got without the out-of-characterness:
The writers were too afraid to let Mike make an actual mistake, so made him be forced by others into making a mistake.
The way to change this involves changing Hopper. Instead of having Hopper go behind Eleven’s back to interfere in her relationship, have Hopper struggle with Mike and lose his temper, but go back and forth and shows concern when the two split up. He and Mike eventually come to a mutual understanding and bond slightly over their concern for El’s safety and their trust in the other when it comes to that.
Mike and Eleven still decide to take a break because of problems in their relationship (he has an inherent fear of losing her and she struggles with understanding why he has feeling for her and is insecure). They struggle throughout the season and learn some more mutual trust through dialogue.
Throughout this, Mike struggles to balance his friendships with his relationship and Will confronts him about it. Mike lies to Eleven to try and appease his friends after failing to commit to them all summer. Eleven finds out Mike lied, and he finds out she went to the mall (and disproportionately freaks out) and they have an actual fight and break up. Will and Lucas try to cheer Mike up with a movie and some hanging out, with no success.
On El's front, have it where Max and Eleven have already become friendly before the season. They bond over time due to mutual interests, and Max takes El shopping in an attempt to cheer her up after her breakup with Mike. It doesn’t really work so she focuses instead on some music and comic book talk. It's not built on hating the boys, so avoids the sloppy "feminist" message they tried for in the actual show.
Speaking of Max, she and Lucas are shown having some fun together and their relationship isn’t just about playing games. It's also complicated, because Lucas isn’t a “strategist” when it comes to relationships, and Max wants to keep seeing him, even though her stepfather and stepbrother do not accept her black boyfriend.
Throughout this, Mike talks to Max about El and takes the opportunity to apologize for having been mean to her when they met.
Besides Max, El would also be starting to form a tentative, but awkward friendship with Will.
You wouldn't have to change much with these two other than rewrite Hopper to be more like his season 1 and season 2 self, rather than being a buffoonish caricature. They have a much closer friendship now and frequently drop in on each other and their families to help out. They have chemistry, and Hopper is getting frustrated, but he isn’t pushy as he respects the fact Joyce still hasn't gotten over Bob's death, and only explodes to reveal his feelings later in the season.
I would also leave out the part where Hopper tortures the mayor. Instead, he gets framed by Kline when he and Joyce reveal what they know about the shady land deals (that and Kline decides to smear Hopper in the press using his knowledge of Hopper's drug usage). They are forced to flee immediately.
Throughout their mystery, both adults frequently attempt to contact the kids but have trouble doing so. At one point, Joyce is able to get hold of Will who instructs him to make sure he, Jonathan and El stay close together and have somewhere safe to sleep.
And before dying in the battle of Starcourt, Hopper expresses regret to Joyce for not having been more patient with her and Eleven.
They should never have redeemed Billy. This sociopath almost ran over three kids, beat Steve, is a confirmed racist by the Duffers, and abused Max...and we feel sorry for him all because he was abused? Abuse is not an excuse.
To reflect this, Billy should have had more screen time with Max this season and his disdain for her relationship with Lucas should've been more apparent. His initial conflict with Eleven would be because he attempts to attack Max after being flayed. In order to protect her friend, El, who happens to be with her, reveals herself. There is no spying incident.
The Mind Flayer, via Billy, also seeks revenge on all the party, not just Eleven. Billy does much more sneaking around in an effort to know them better. Aside from El, he is very interested in Joyce, Will, Mike and Hopper - all who he knows played an active part in his defeat. He partially succeeds in finding out some weaknesses.
The Russians should've been kept much more mysterious, and their “facility” in Hawkins should've been very small and limited. As in, it is discovered by Robin only, and she relays what she saw to Steve, who then brings Dustin and the others into the case. There is no high security and they just infiltrated the mall. They don’t own the mall outright.
Alternately, just use Brenner and his lackeys instead.
In particular, Nancy’s workplace harassment storyline should've had more nuanced writing. She and Jonathan also should've had a mutual disagreement, instead of one where Nancy is just deemed to be right. There can also be an apology scene where Nancy apologizes to Jonathan for not being more attentive to his financial situation because she was so fixated on trying to win respect from the others at the paper.
While this is going on, Jonathan and Nancy should also have gotten more family time with their respective families. Will, Jonathan and Joyce get to have some family moments. Same goes for the Wheelers, by having Nancy interact with Mike and Dustin, and not give opinions on El’s safety.
New teaser for season 4.
Honestly, I'm super disappointed that they're keeping the Russian angle going.
Part of what made the first season so brilliant was that the main villain was not a supernatural monster, or a Russian assassin. Rather, it was a US government administrator, who's only move was gently reassuring you that he was acting in your interest.
The first season deconstructed 1980s tropes, but in Season 3 it mostly just recycled them, and one of those was the Red Scare attitude played completely straight, complete with the unironic love of consumerism. (The show explicitly equates El buying new clothes with self-actualization, has nameless Russian infiltrators as the season's villains, and has Lucas literally just lay out the great virtues of capitalism.)
Not only is the Russian angle bogging down the story, but it's only, so far, looking at the former USSR on a surface level, along with a shallow understanding of the end of the Cold War.note Brenner was truly terrifying because he was so calm in how he reassured Eleven, reassured the Wheelers to help him, told Joyce he needed her help in a calm manner, etc. More dramatic than Hopper's numerous fist fights in season 3, that's for sure.
Speaking of Hopper, not looking forward to seeing him go back to being the abusive dickhead to every other character that the audience knows and (apparently) loves. I'm tired of having to explain to people elsewhere on the Internet how season 3 completely trashed Hopper's character. I'm betting his reunion with everyone will be framed as a powerful emotional thing and we'll be expected to forgive him for all of his out of character behavior in season 3. It's certainly at odds with how I feel about him being in a role as a caregiver, unless they hold him accountable and experience consequences for sabotaging his child's relationship, or berating Joyce for speaking to another man, or solving every single problem with violence or abuse of power. None of which was ever framed as wrong or some kind of tragic flaw born out of trauma that he has to overcome, it's played 100% for zany sitcom laughs or "badass" moments.
The cold never bothered me anyway
To be honest, I'm just not interested in seeing this season. I guess I just found the last one to be a disappointment because I just can't muster any real excitement or anticipation over the trailer.
I just want more Byers and Wheeler family dynamics, of Jonathan and Will being siblings, and same with Mike and Nancy.
The cold never bothered me anyway
I still find the show reasonably well produced and it's fun to watch it with my brother and his boyfriend, but I will say I'm fairly detached so far. More cartoonish Soviets is about the last thing I want.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."
The Soviets could have honestly been very terrifying villains. It's not like an authoritarian dictatorship is any less terrifying because they were disliked by conservatives in the 80s. I just disliked the presentation, which was deliberately as cheesy as possible.
What, they don't have plainclothes officers?
Cloak and Dagger was genuinely terrifying despite being an 80s kids film because the foreign agents were murderous, ruthless, and They Look Just Like Everyone Else!.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 14th 2020 at 12:21:32 PM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.I mean, it is firstly a bit questionable to have Soviets as these cartoonish supervillains when you have America during the cold war shedding just as much innocent blood and propping their own authoritative, cold-blooded dictatorships wily-nily. It's even worse because this takes place smack in the middle of Gorbatchev's reforms and de-escalation of the cold war. It's the least likely period for some kind of "let's wage supernatural war on the americans" plot possible.
The Soviets in the season look even worse because season 3 is almost transparently hardcore consumerism capitalist advertisement. The only Soviet who defects embraces capitalism (the other ones are either inhumanly stoic or cartoons), Eleven's quest of humanity is directly linked to her power to buy clothes (in a sequence set to Material Girl, no less), and the carnival sequence even includes a sequence about how despite the American capitalism system is a rigged sham in favor of the wealthy, it still totally works somehow and anyone can be a true winner of the american dream.
In our day and age of consumerism very much showing its ugly teeth, it's downright laughable (or insulting) the extent with which Stranger Things promotes it.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."
It all felt on the nose and lacking in depth— the evil Russians were just evil Russians, the Russian Terminator had no depth or motivation, the Mind Flayer was a zombie rip-off, Magnum PI was on the nose, the teenage drama was done poorly and not the way John Hughes could execute it. Stranger Things used to be its own thing and just now feels like an 80s love fest. And not a good one. It's cosplay. And the Russians being able to infiltrate Hawkins? Well that makes Hopper and the US government incredibly incompetent to allow this to happen in the cold war. It breaks suspension of disbelief. (HNL and Brenner have been the only truly compelling human villains in the show)
I will say that there was less mystery in season 2 and that the pace was uneven. There were too many filler storylines that again, were 80s rip-offs, like the Dart storyline. It made the Demogorgon less unique and mysterious. And it's Gremlins. Not necessary. And love triangles and "justice for Barb"note . I can't say that season 3 did that much of a better job of a clearly focused narrative though. The tone was too jarring with comedy, sitcom humor, and body horror, along with Scooby Doo antics in the Scoops Troop storyline. I don't understand how anyone finds the scoops troop at all enjoyable. It's a childish season, devoid of the pathos the previous seasons had.
And the character writing was not as careful and respectful of their journeys as earlier seasons. Most of the characters' actions in season 3 come across as rather dumb and stupid. The writers seemed to treat them and conflicts with less agency and trust. None of the conflict, especially in the party dynamics, felt organic. In fact, all of it was contrived for either fanservice or to serve agendas to get bad faith critics of the female characters off the showrunners' backs. The portrayal of Eleven and Max's friendship, for example, was so shallow and one dimensional. (For them, episodes 2 and 3 were essentially Shawn Levy and the Duffers wasting Netflix resources on Sadie and Millie play time, as can be ascertained from Shawn Levy calling them ketchup and mustard.)
I understand if people like jokes, fun, and entertainment. But I also don't understand how people can find any of the mean-spiritedness, cynicism and bitterness, all constantly timed on comedy beats, poignant. It has the effect of trivializing their circumstances and the dialogue came across as rather dumb and treating the dynamics between the characters as distant and almost like strangers. The characters should be more demonstrative in their care for one another, not mean. They should be able to rise above this even though they are growing up. I feel less convinced of many of the character dynamics after this season.
I also have to wonder with the show moving more mainstream, if Shawn Levy, the show's executive producer and the Duffers' fellow showrunner, has influenced the more comedic and mainstream tone it's displayed lately. In looking at his previous work, he's directed many comedies and romantic comedies. They have all been popular with mainstream audiences, but are not necessarily known for having depth. One such movie being Just Married, where Ashton Kutcher and Brittany Murphy's characters treat each other terribly the entire movie to the point that you're sick of them by the end and are no longer rooting for them.
EDIT: And speaking of the teaser, this teaser shows that Stranger Things has well and truly jumped the shark. Everything shown and implied in this teaser is ludicrous, ridiculous and beyond belief. Railroad chain gangs in Siberia? This is pathetically cliche and nothing close to actual history.
Edited by dmcreif on Feb 15th 2020 at 5:33:57 AM
The cold never bothered me anyway
I know that video
on how Hopper's character was derailed in season 3 has been posted, but look how many of its comments agree with the assessment. Gems like the following:
When Bob died in S2, I was also pissed off, but thought it could make for interesting PTSD drama for Joyce in S3. I was hoping Hop would be sensitive and help her get through it. I figured they would eventually become a couple, but only in S4 and more or less only when Hop became as caring and sensitive as Bob. Instead, she gets one scene of missing Bob and a couple of nods to him here and there in S3, then we move on to the disgusting version of Hop. Pathetic.
I was also slightly hoping they would ultimately critique the trope, but like you said, they doubled down in the last episode of S3.
What makes all of this worse is how many people say they like Angry Hop even more than previous Flawed But Growing Hop. That includes David Harbour, the actor who plays him. Grrr.
The one thing I hadn’t picked up on was the connection to 80s tropes (Magnum PI, etc), since I’m too young to be familiar with those movies. But that makes sense, in retrospect. I don’t have any 80s nostalgia (I like the show on its own merit), but you’re right they pulling from the past can be dangerous in the way you describe."
Where I stand on this is that I think the writers should've written Hopper to actually respect Joyce as we’d seen in the other seasons, to let Hopper learn from his mistakes with Eleven and Mike in season 2.
Semi-related to Hopper, but Nancy and Jonathan's friendship with Murray Bauman from season 2 should've gotten focus. That would've been a better way to tie Murray into the story. And maybe let Nancy develop a strong connection with Joyce as women who've been shut down by men who refuse to believe they're onto something.
I mean, imagine if, the writers, rather than prioritize memes and product placement and an endlessly growing cast, gave proper development and exploration of the excellent cast that season 1 started out with. Imagine how much richer every character would be by now if they'd gotten that time and care. That's a problem of the character roster getting very overbloated.
Edited by dmcreif on Oct 10th 2019 at 1:42:49 PM
The cold never bothered me anyway