South America culture and politics thread

Why did I even bother coming to this thread.

Edited by ZeroDozer on Oct 19th 2018 at 1:00:58 PM

If you don't know that do you expect us to tell you why?

To hear out the opinions from people from your country and around the globe? We all have our bits that we can share on this matter and we don't necessarily have to agree on anything here.

While I appreciate you giving out your perspective (much as I despise the bag of pure, massive ideological contradictions that is anarcho-capitalism, and/or the popular libertarianism that goes around these days that you seem to be interested in), all of us who participate generally have to bring our A game and to stand our ground in regards to our opinions (unless there's a change of views on our part) to this particular subforum.

We don't always match that ideal 24/7, but we know we can't just spout our opinions and hoping they'll be left alone, without counter-arguments being laid out. You'll get used to this, and, of course, any of us (and you, needless to say) can take a break, if we feel the discussion is taking its toll on us.

Anyway, if I get your perspective, it basically boils down to: "Bolsonaro is bad, but I don't want PT to get back into power". If I may ask, who did you vote for in the first round?

Edited by Quag15 on Oct 20th 2018 at 2:42:29 PM

If I had voted, I would have gone for Amoedo. He was the cleanest candidate around by far, the true representative of the Right-wing unlike Bolsonaro, who still resorts to Populism/Coletivism.

As I said before, I stopped voting in 2012, and had my voter's title revoked just this year, without having been able to regularize it. Not that I care much, it can count as a protest in a country where you are forced to vote, but this year I actually wanted to vote.

I believe that if Brazilians went for the best/cleanest rather than for the "winner" (this is basically what stuff boiled down to in the previous elections since... Collor, maybe?), Amoedo might have had a chance. Bolsonaro kinda happens to be the mix of "winner" and "whatever's needed to finally get PT out of the command chain". Which I actually hate.

Well, since there is pretty good evidence that Bolsonaro election team is using the ''caixa 2'' to avoid declaring how much money he spent in his publicity campaign, you can scratch about him being the clean candidate.

The idea that Bozonaro was the clean candidate has and always been an illusion, the reason why he avoided corruption scandals have always been related to his lack of presence beyond saying stupid shit in interviews, than actual influence in the congress. His current and former parties weren't influential or large enough to warrant large interest from the corruption machine and even that still didn't prevent the his party, being the PSL at the time, receive bribes from JBS.

Besides, he has a long history of always supporting government functionalism for congressmen like himself. I doubt that will change when he becomes president, since his sons and himself are career politicians and got wealth due to politics.

I never said Bolsonaro was the cleanest, or even clean to begin with. That "ghost secretary" story is still fresh on my mind.

Now, while we're at pointing campaign frauds, Haddad/PT isn't better either. Starting with March's "Twittolão" and going through the whole rest of the campaign.

Edited by ZeroDozer on Oct 20th 2018 at 2:39:35 PM

Twittolão is a pretty basic conspiracy theory backed by almost no trusted source I can find except some fringe youtube channels and radio shows, unlike the Bolsonaro story which is vastly backed up by stuff like El País. If you can find some actual, legitimate sources, I'd be more interested, but thus far I have no idea how you can throw pretty much the newspapers of the entire world under the bus only to say in the same breath that you support some fringe conspiracy theory backed on hearsay.

Oh yeah, El País is such a trustworthy source. Much like the rest of Mainstream Media.

I repeat: The man is bad, but the level this Scare Campaign has reached from both media and some of the electorate is far worse.

But it's not like I'll vote on any of those two anyways. My battle is to Take a Third Option, not to follow the flow.

I take my skepticism as something I need to have so I can keep going on. Also, it's very much needed when you live in a country that feeds you lies 24/7, be either from the government, the media or the people themselves.

About a null/non-vote helping Bolsonaro: It won't make difference when you take a good look at the other candidate. I said it many times now: this country's fucked regardless of who the new president is. People are basically choosing how they want to get fucked, and that's the awful truth no one wants to see.

Now, if you guys want Bolsonaro taken down by that electoral fraud thing Haddad pulled, do me a favor and remember Haddad and PT did the same. If one is to go down for that (That would be cool, actually), the other must go down as well. After all, shouldn't the law be for everyone? Why apply the electoral rules to only one side?

Edited by ZeroDozer on Oct 20th 2018 at 3:39:16 PM

Look, I can understand being skeptical but I believe you are taking it too far.

Edit:

Okay, that's it. I'm sorry to break this onto you, but trying to take the third option in this case is only going to help the likes of Bolsonaro reach the presidency. I know nobody likes to keep choosing the lesser of two evils, but that still is needed to keep the worst out of office.

Edited by raziel365 on Oct 20th 2018 at 11:31:42 AM

So wait, the mainstream media is untrustworthy while some two-bit conspiracy theory is legit?

Define two-bit conspiracy theory. Because anything from the whole electorate, both sides, applies for that lately.

When I said Brazilians had the second worst perception of reality, I was not kidding.

Edited by ZeroDozer on Oct 20th 2018 at 3:41:58 PM

Is it the truth what you want to hear? or just what you want the truth to be?

I ask the same of all of you. I can get sources from sites you like as well, as this sorta made world news.

Before you ask, yeah, I know the contradiction.

Edited by ZeroDozer on Oct 20th 2018 at 4:25:47 PM

So is Terra not part of the mainstream media? By the same (entirely arbitrary) criteria you're applying could you not just as easily dismiss what they say as well? I don't really understand your thought process here.

Note: I'm not saying I don't believe that report, but it just talks about a bunch of random data points to indicate that brazilians' general knowledge of various statistics is generally incorrect. It's at best only tangentially related to your argument.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Oct 20th 2018 at 3:27:29 PM

You mean, you are going to validate your claims by pointing out an article that highlights the lack of awareness from the average Brazilian towards things like statistical data, in an article that highlights the issue of Accentuate the Negative being a common reason why people overestimate most data when it comes to something they feel negative or care about or how it isn't even an issue that is inherent to Brazil?

But this whole mainstream media making scaremongering campaign still sheer bullshit.

Bolsonaro and his fanboys have been doing their earnest to delegitimize traditional forms of media, specially by branding any negative news regarding Bolsonaro as fake news while simultaneously launching their own fake news campaigns in social media to promote their own bullshit.

Everyone, who is alarmed by this attitude, is rightfully so exactly because it has been done before in the US and Europe by the far right win parties and groups, trying to promote themselves.

The strategy of delegitimize mainstream news, is exactly to keep their information bubble intact and prevent dissenting voices from reaching in and out. By itself it creates a problem where free press should be heavily regulated and legitimizes constant attacks against the free press.

Which is something that Trump is doing in the US, when he constantly attacks all media channels that aren't Fox News, critics or anyone disagreeing how he has the best numbers ever.

It is what the Russians do all the fucking time, with their state media presence and whataboutism to turn the focus to somewhere else, on top of their long standing policy of outright assassinating journalists and critics.

It is what the European Far Right does all the time, specially to polarize the population against immigrants and blaming the press for covering it up.

It is exactly what Hugo Chavez did to the Venezuelan press, when he used legal loopholes to keep other news channels from working and pushed for either his state run news or only papers who were supportive of him to operate.

Which is funny because, all irony in the world is not enough to make people realize that Bolsonaro is heading the same path as Hugo Chavez trailed. Talk about turning Brazil into a Venezuela right?

Specially when they fabricate outrage stories and then present themselves as the solution to the problem.

Which is exactly what Bolsonaro did with the whole Gay Kit and left wing and homosexual indoctrination in the primary schools. Which still appeals to the traditionalist family values sought after by the Brazilian society regardless of social class.

Or how he repeatedly claims it is due human rights that crime managed to grow so strong because cops can't arrest criminals anymore. It doesn't take long after studying criminology to realize that notion is bullshit. It isn't human rights that are giving criminals their leeway. It is a stupidly long list of issues that have been dragged over nearly 2 centuries of history, most of them related to the completely stupid and failed way the Brazilian government has been treating crime to begin with, massive amounts of poverty and the public policies offering very little options to people living in slums, while criminal elements at least provide some sense of dignity.

It is also how he tries to cast himself as a political outsider who is going to end the excessive welfare of politicians and corruption, despise being associated with parties caught in the Lava Jato corruption scandal, or how he has over 30 years worth of politics and all his sons are career politicians like himself and never even proposed or even voted for the law projects designed to reduce or cut down the benefits for the political class.

No one here has any illusions about Haddad being a shitty option, being clean or even promising to make a good government.

But the one being portrayed as a saviour and the solution to all this country's woes, isn't Haddad. It is Bolsonaro and it is exactly what makes him dangerous, it is all the popular acclaim he receives as being the messiah allowing him to use his popularity to undermine the other political institutions responsible for the checks and balances in the government, approve draconian laws and measures for the sake of public security and delegitimize press and dissent through his own scare tactics and creating information bubbles through social media.

Maybe you can call all this fucking load of text scare mongering but it doesn't take much to realize that his campaign, his rhetoric and his history don't portray a pretty picture. Specially when Brazil, along the rest of South America, elected the same types as Bolsonaro, with all of them without a single exception regardless of them being right or left wing creating a mess bigger than the mess they used to rise to power.

Edited by AngelusNox on Oct 20th 2018 at 4:25:13 PM

Do you even know that this article doesn't actually support your thesis at all? Beside the absurdity of criticizing mainstream media while linking to it, I mean. I am honestly not even sure what your point is supposed to be. Like, if anything it goes against it. One of the most prominent arguments for Bolsonaro is because of how shitty PT turned the country and how chaotic things are right now. But, by that article most Brazilians overestimate how bad things are and, thus, PT and its government wasn't as terrible as so many believe.

So, really, what was even supposed to be your point?

I have a very hard time understanding the thought process of "let us get rid of corruption by electing literal authoritarians", and I really try my best to understand the logic people are going by. And there are many critiques to be had about how the media can do a much better job, but the immense disregard towards the "mainstream" is bizzare. The word of some rando with a microphone isn't inherently more truthful/usefull just because the aren't part of the "establishment".

Edited by Kakuzan on Oct 20th 2018 at 11:58:30 AM

Welp, guys, this is it. Bolsonaro is taking over next year.

To those who might feel threatened by violent guys on the streets, stay safe and take care.

Otherwise, let's hope our institutions really show some solidness this time and block his excesses. And (if you believe it) pray for his government not to be as shitty as it's shaping up to be.

So, anyone here familiar with Bolivia?

I came across this somewhat old article comparing (and more pertinently contrasting) Bolivia with Venezuela. Has anyone any comments? I think the points made there are fair.

Well, is a torny issue: In one part some have said that Evo is the tony blair to Hugo being bush: a huge lapdop who will jump to is leg master the moment he see the oportunity.

On the other hand, Evo being saner than chavez and maduro allow himt o come better by the fact that he....well, isnt batshit insane to begin with.

One of Bolsonaro's sons, Flavio Bolsonaro, is being investigated due to irregular bank transfers from his ex-private driver and Bolsonaro's wife.

And it begins, to the surprise of no one in this thread, his family is about as rotten as the politicians Bolsonaro denounces.

This is a big problem when we discuss about the very discussion of corruption: we are led to believe that it's linked to a certain party or group and that the next candidate (whoever that may be) will be the one who's gonna clean it all up.

But in truth, one candidate or small group are powerless to fight against it when it's a system much bigger than oneself, even if they wish to do so. Measures against the system go way deeper than just changing who's in charge. But this is too complicated, and people don't like it when we have to work hard for it. We'd rather go for a simple solution and leave it to someone else.

Edited by KusaMigeru on Dec 24th 2018 at 9:33:23 AM

All of that is true, but it's also worth noting that Bolsonaro never cared about corruption to begin with. It was all talk; the only reason people didn't see his own corruption is because they didn't want to, or because the only "corruption" they care about is PT's.

Fully agreed. My point was just that, even if he cared (he doesn't, since he's part of the system as much as most of previous presidents who had said they cared before him), he wouldn't be able to do much on his own anyway.