New DuckTales Animated Series

Which kind of argues to my point. Change too much and you risk losing the Periphery Demographic.

That said, they're the periphery demographic. If it's a choice between appealing to older viewers or younger ones, and the show is deliberately made for younger ones, I see no problem with Disney giving the kids the priority.

In fact I see no good reason not to.

Edited by sgamer82 on Dec 2nd 2018 at 10:35:14 AM

and it does appeal to kids, and the stuff that doesnt appeal to kids appeals to the adults, and not every adult dislikes what you do, so like just because you and others online dislike it does not mean every adult ever dislikes it.

Edited by Deadpoolrocks on Dec 2nd 2018 at 9:34:45 AM

@ kkhohoho

Not all of Disney's shows have to be for everyone.

But at least make sure some of the shows do that.

Also, the new Ducktales and DTV have more in common than one might think. Half-assed storytelling, forced emotion, inconsistent characterization, etc.

@ sgamer82

The point is, the new Ducktales has stumbled quite a bit when trying to appeal to the older viewers.

That's your opinion. My opinion is that Ducktales has barely any of what you've just described, so to each their own.

Edited by kkhohoho on Dec 2nd 2018 at 11:36:55 AM

what the hell does forced emotion even mean. isnt that any piece of media ever if it makes you feel things.

and i've seen a lot of older fans who like the new ducktales. its weird how different people can have different opinions and different groups of adults can like different things for different reasons.

Edited by Deadpoolrocks on Dec 2nd 2018 at 9:37:51 AM

My opinion, and that of several other people (otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned those points). But fine, to each their own.

An example of forced emotion (Type A): Spongebob being a crybaby because he was 1 minute late for work. An example from this show: Dewey making a drama over the Monster of the Week eating his phone.

A more sophisticated example (Type B): Optimus finding it morally hard to kill Megatron despite having no trouble killing off multiple Decepticon mooks. Likewise, from this show: Webby getting all teary-eyed over the loss of Lena and then forgetting about said character in under 2 minutes, with said character never being mentioned or mourned upon even until now.

Edited by BrightLight on Dec 3rd 2018 at 6:44:44 AM

Again, the show's still semi-standalone. Not all plot points or character beats are going to continue from one episode to the next. In this specific case, they probally won't get brought up again until they make a whole episode specifically about that. That's just how most of these kinds of shows work.

Ben 10: Alien Force was semi-serialized (at least for its first 2 seasons), and yet the villains and the drama feel more real than they do here. And they also gave and utilized continuity nods from time to time - not just when it becomes relevant to the story, to the point of being too late and rushed as a result.

And back to Ducktales, if they do resolve Lena's situation in the same episode she's revealed to be alive, then that is objectively lazy writing. There is no other way to put it, and standalone narratives won't serve as an excuse. Taking that narrative style is negatively affecting the story that the show wants to tell (but can't pull out the guts to do so effectively).

Edited by BrightLight on Dec 3rd 2018 at 7:04:20 AM

I tuned out from the boring space Nazis from Alien Force.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Yeah, even given that it was my entry point to the Ben 10 series (I tried to get into the Original series but the obnoxious protagonists turned me off), Alien Force's attempts to take itself seriously skewed more towards repetitive melodrama with bland characterization and the occasional gem than something interesting overall. The Highbreed arc went on for two seasons and it was basically the same episode every single time, to the point where stuff that wasn't related to it tended to shine more.

I'm not sure whether or not I would call it a step up from it's less "serious" predecessor. Both shows are about average.

I preferred the somewhat less arc-based and more episodic Ultimate Alien (mostly because it handled character dynamics a little better), but that still definitely had the problem of going too dark at times, to the point where it didn't really seem to know how to go light even on the occasions where it wanted to be (hence Ben's painful and confusingly hatcheted personality).

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 3rd 2018 at 12:48:19 PM

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

Man, I agree with BrightLight on a lot of stuff. Trying to thread the needle on Scrooge being greedy and selfish and also the big good is awkward as hell. And having a major character die on-screen with no follow-up is frankly galling.

But the tone being taken bugs the hell out of me. The idea that addressing these things would be good because they appeal to older audience is nonsense. Disney Channel's target demographic taps out at age thirteen, and there's nothing wrong with that. Children need entertainment, and there's maybe six channels giving it to them, as opposed to the fifty thousand targeted at teens and adults. There is absolutely nothing wrong with designing a show for kids that adults aren't going to be obsessed by.

But more than that, the show does have a periphory demographic. This thread exists. The creators are constantly taking asks on social media. You Tube is littered with Duck Tales reaction videos. Numerous sites targeted at adults give it regular review coverage because people are reading it. The simple fact is that the show is working for people. Acting like it isn't is nonsense. Acting like it needs major systemic overhauls to even start to build a fanbase is ludicrous. And acting like not having an adult fanbase is some kind of failure on the part of the entire Walt Disney Corperation to diversify its portfolio—a portfolio, I'll remind you, that includes a wildly successful war movie where the entire lead cast dies—is cuckoo banana pants.

By all means, rag on the show for its characterization and serialization failures. I might not always agree, but you'll be on firmer ground there then you are saying literally anything about what standards the show is operating on or whether or not it's objectively succeeding.

Edited by Wackd on Dec 3rd 2018 at 3:50:33 PM

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.

@ Known Unknown

I'm making the Alien Force comparison on the very possible grounds that the writers of Ducktales aren't going to improve the flaws that fans call out.

In other words, I'm trying to be a bit more lenient and stop comparing Ducktales to Avatar or Transformers Animated from time to time and instead compare it to a show of relatively equal footing.

If by bland you're talking about Ben, I'm gonna have to disagree with you there and state that Character Development finally settled into that head of his (for about 2 seasons, anyway). Gwen was also less self-righteous and less obnoxious. Whatever grievances I might have had with Season 1 and 2 (and there are very few of those) were mitigated by a refreshing take on watching a more mature, maternal Gwen, and a level-headed, responsible Ben.

I would also disagree that S1 and S2 episodes were same-y. We got Mike Morningstar, a healthy romance between Ben and Julie (before it all went to crap in Ultimate Alien), Grandma Verdona, Ben teaching Cash a lesson, the Plumbers' Helpers, a more Badass Dr Animo, Albedo, Azmuth trusting Ben wholeheartedly, freaking Paradox, and arguably the best episode "Inside Man".

I mean, from your words, comparing Ducktales to Ultimate Alien would be much more accurate, particularly the bouncing abruptly back and forth from light to dark - "The Other Bin" being a primary offender.

@ Omega Radiance

Call the Highbreed boring, but at least they were feared and gave the heroes a proper challenge.

Edited by BrightLight on Dec 3rd 2018 at 10:28:05 PM

Im so scared Im falling asleep from their presence.

Seriously nothing about them works for me when I was a kid who liked the original despite its faults but found the Highbreed in AF and their invasion dreadfully boring in every way. Im all for dark and serious storytelling but they never worked. Along with other narratove flaws I had with AF onwards.

I can actually remember what goes on with Ducktales episodes unlike the Highbreed who I only remember as Space Nazis with Bodysnatching underlings.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 3rd 2018 at 1:45:33 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

@ Wackd

Okay, so Disney has a target audience that taps out at 13 and they're keeping all of their shows to match that demographic. Then that means Nickelodeon fans and Cartoon Network fans are justified in their bragging rights, because the latter two channels have had at least 1 show that appeals to all ages (Avatar for Nick, Clone Wars and Transformers Animated for CN).

What's wrong with having entertainment that can present mature themes to children (and the rest of the family)?

There are lots of animation pieces that would like to have a word with you: Land Before Time (original), Toy Story trilogy, Kung Fu Panda 1 & 2 (but definitely NOT 3), Prince of Egypt, Incredibles, WALL-E, Up, Fox and the Hound, amongst others.

Children sat through the above animations and ultimately turned out fine (with perhaps the only consequence being that they would justifiably complain about the lessening number of mature animated works today). So why the sudden downgrade of quality in this decade?

Yes, Rogue One exists, and that pleased lots of people on many levels. Particularly because Star Wars fans loathe the existence of Rebels and now Resistance.

Okay, but to be more specific (and failing to do so before in this argument is my own fault), Disney doesn't have a lot of mature animation media, if any at all.

I'll concede that Zootopia is a masterpiece (and in my Top 10), but how often does Disney try to do something like that for their films?

Pixar and Marvel films are under a different division banner, so they don't count. And particularly, comparing the live-action Marvel films to their animated counterparts on Disney television explains my points a great deal.

"The simple fact is that the show is working for people."

Yes, and while plenty of people are happy to watch it and be content, there are also comics fans on multiple forums expressing their own disappointment about particular elements.

Yes, me going up to the point that I am, I will admit that "I'm going too far in a few places", but that can go the same for you guys acting like there's nothing that the show could do a better job at.

And finally, the literally scheduled drama for this show is an all-round characterization, serialization and objective failure.

Edited by BrightLight on Dec 3rd 2018 at 11:00:49 PM

@ Omega Radiance

I'll always prefer the portrayal of the Highbreeds over Magica being sent packing immediately after her (admittedly somewhat glorious) return.

Also, though they may have failed to scare you, Ben and company were scared of the Highbreeds. Compare that to the ducklings always getting the upper hand over the Beagle Boys and treating them as nothing more than a mere inconvenience.

Edited by BrightLight on Dec 3rd 2018 at 11:01:50 PM

You're still running off of the idea that the opinions of you and the people who agree with you are objectively correct, and the opinions of people who disagree are inherently less knowledgable, which is the primary problem. Your arguments are built on a lot of fallacies as a result.

Either way, on the topic of the periphery demographic: that there exist people who are dissatisfied with the show does not, in itself, mean that the show is failing to satisfy its periphery demographic. It just means that there are people who don't like it, which frankly everything is going to have.

If you're trying to make the case that the show is poorly engaging its demographic as a whole, previous posters are right that the fact that said periphery demographic is visibly and demonstrably going rather strong in a general sense puts question on how significant "I know some people who don't like it" is as a rebuttal.

Whether or not either group is right, there's a lot going against the claim that the show is hurting its demographic. If anything the periphery demographic seems to be growing.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 3rd 2018 at 2:01:06 AM

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

Fair enough.

Though I would like to point out that review sites such as Den of Geek, AV Club, and Toonzone have put forward their own fair share of episodes and elements of the show that they dislike. And some of that does have to do with the critiques that several people have put on this thread and on the official review page for this show.

Edited by BrightLight on Dec 3rd 2018 at 11:18:51 PM

AV Club has also only given four episods anything lower than a B-.

Like, again, the problem isn't that you're wrong for thinking the show has problems. You're wrong for thinking the show's problems are so egregious that they in fact represent a systemic failure by Disney to make anything that engages with mature themes besides Marvel movies, Pixar, Zootopia, and the occasional Star War (which is, you know, not exactly a small portion of their output.)

On that note, I'll point out that Gravity Falls adult fanbase is so mindboggling huge that they actually justified the expense of putting out a complete series DVD set with bonus features, something Disney hasn't to my knowledge done for any kids TV show since their 2005 Disney Afternoon sets. Like. Yeah, Disney Channel has periphery demographic bragging rights.

Edited by Wackd on Dec 3rd 2018 at 5:41:01 AM

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.

@ Wackd

Den of Geek also has four episodes rated 3 or below (out of 5). That's still, like, 20% of the first season being called out (believe it or not, that is a lot).

For your second paragraph, fans of Marvel and Pixar are adamant that they be credited for their own films and not Disney primarily (for good reason, as those 2 studios have free reign over their film content instead of Disney forcing child-friendly standards and limitations on them). Also, relating to television, viewers dislike the newest Spiderman show - along with most other Marvel shows on Disney Channel (most likely because they are forced to adhere to Disney's standards there).

Good point on Gravity Falls - but the show has concluded its run.

As of now, Ducktales is the best family show we've got now. And that's both a compliment and a backhand.

---

And let's get one thing straight.

As much as you see me push for new Disney content to skew for older viewers and not just younglings, that also works in the opposite direction.

Stuff like Shawshank Redemption, Pulp Fiction, The Dark Knight, The Dark Knight Rises, and Mirage TMNT - I view stuff like that as overrated because they refuse to appeal to the kids in the audience.

It's bad when only the little kids are satisfied, and it's bad when only the adults are satisfied. Both sides should be included.

Too much of one thing is a bad thing.

A balance for both young and old alike - is that so hard to achieve?

Actually, the Beagle Boys being laughably incompetent joke characters has been a problem in the Dutch comics for decades. Simply said, they are wimps who have lost any sense of threat, and barely commit any crime at all sometimes. They are wholly undeserving of their Barksian reputation these days. And that's a damn shame.

And this show is doing that too. Just look at Glomgold! He went from a credible threat to a joke in just one season, and now the show has to work hard to retrieve that credibility as a villain. That will be hard, since they have already established Glommy as a goofy klutz. It is basically the same problem Launchpad has: when you make the character too wacky and goofy, it is hard to then take them seriously when they DO try to do something serious, or have an actual dramatic moment.

As for serialization, I don't see how this show is NOT serialized to some extent. We had two major plotlines going in season one, one of which is still ongoing. There is a clear continuity in the season overall, even if individual episodes don't always connect. You could not watch this show at random without running into some major continuity snarls and spoilers, something that is not true for the original Ducktales up to season 2 (and remember that that was a LONG season 1).

This show is obviously not aimed at kids only. Just look at all those references to 90s cartoons. How many of today's young audience are going to get those? I doubt many kids know what the hell Cape Suzette is (and get why we haven't seen it already despite the show bringing it up again and again - that must be confusing).

And regardless, even if it WAS just for kids, that does not excuse a lowering of standards. Kids deserve quality entertainment just as much as adults. We should not refrain from critisizing a show because it is "just for kids". That would lead straight into the Animation Age Ghetto.

Similarly, popularity does not equal quality, and neither does it invalidate criticism. There are plenty of examples of popular franchises that are still not very good. Just look at the Transformers movies.

I have to agree that there is definitely more widespread criticism of the show outside of this thread, even among people that generally like the show. And one does not invalidate the other. You can absolutely be a big fan and still find issues with this, or any show.

I have to agree that, though this show certainly has some major issues, it is NOT a failure by any means. And it IS definitely improving in quality. Most notably, the comedy is getting more confident and less obtrusive (in the sense that jokes are better integrated into the episode, rather than sticking out like a sore thumb), and relies less on metajokes and sarcasm.

On a side note, I saw one reviewer quip that Ducktales is going on a well deserved break now... after only 6 episodes. I find that hysterical, when you realize that the original Ducktales was pumping out episodes almost daily, and kept that up for 65 episodes over barely three months. Granted, a lot of those episodes had problems, but considering that pacing of production, the quality was amazing. And here we are, giving the show a "deserved break" for 6 episodes in as many weeks.

Optimism is a duty.

You might want to rethink your examples here, because while I'll give you Batman and TMNT, how in the hell are The Shawshank Redemption and Pulp Fiction supposed to appeal to small children? Movies like that they shouldn't even be in the theater in the first place.

There's criticizing a work for not appealing to a broader audience, then there's criticizing a work for not aopeaing to an audience it never intended to court in the first place. It's like knocking points off a screwball comedy for not bring grimdark enough, or a slasher movie for not having happy, fluffy rainbows.

Edited by sgamer82 on Dec 3rd 2018 at 9:26:21 AM

...Why are we talking about Ben 10, Pulp Fiction, Transformers: Animated, and the Mirage TMNT?

I mean, even in comparison to this series' writing, none of these really have anything to do with each other or DuckTales. Outside of maybe two of them being oft-rebooted 80s properties, since Ducktales was 80s (although the comics they were based off of weren't).

Granted, I could totally see DuckTales 2017 doing a pastiche of Pulp Fiction. Although I think the series generally prefers less famous movies as reference pools; like The Warriors and Hercules in New York (although I know the former is a Cult Classic).

So uh, I skimmed few posts so sorry if I missed anything, but I wanted to say that while it is okay to be like "I just want to do OK or average show instead of good or great show" that is also pretty anti intellectual since everyone should thrive to better themselves, so if show runners are not actually trying to better themselves, they would just stagnate and start making a show that would bore the audience

Like, you can say "Show is good enough", but saying "It doesn't need to be better because they don't want to" is really insulting thing to say from artist perspective, artist always wants their next work to be better than previous ones, otherwise they would just quit and retire once they have done their "greatest" work (from business perspective it is also but for more greedy reason :P) I guess you could also work on animation industry just to earn your bread on table, but if that is your reason, it'd be easier to just work on any other less stressful job to be honest

(Anyway, besides my pet peevee with idea "its okay to be average because its kids show" there is also problem with idea that shows aimed at 13 year olds don't need good writing because, again, apparently 13 year olds can't appreciate it. I mean, they definitely are likely less critical in comparison(or at least their criticism is probably more immature like "This show is for stupid babies, I'm grown up already") but still :P )

(note: I probably misunderstood the "This doesn't need to be Avatar level quality" wrong)

Edited by SpookyMask on Dec 3rd 2018 at 5:40:20 PM

The main argument, as I've followed it, is that Ducktales is somehow failing because it doesn't do enough to appeal to older viewers, and lackluster writing is one of the reasons cited.

To me, that seems off because a children's show should be primarily focused on the child viewers and if it's good enough to get that Periphery Demographic, which as mentioned Ducktales demonstrably is, that's a bonus not the goal.

To me, it seems less an issue of writing quality, which I've generally considered perfectly fine and above average, and more one of unrealistic expectations and/or wanting the show to be something it wasn't designed to be.

Edited by sgamer82 on Dec 3rd 2018 at 9:17:47 AM