She/Her Pronouns
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The Empire of Japan is interesting as a mirror of the British Empire. Both were island monarchies that expanded outside of their home islands to attain power. Both used Gunboat Diplomacy and "incidents" as justification for their conquests. Japan was more obviously repressive, mainly because the repression targeted its own citizens as well, but both could be astoundingly cruel to the people living under the boot. (Again, Japan is more obvious with things like Unit 731 or "Comfort Women", but Britain too did crimes like starving out Bengal.)
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
From my perspective, the challenge with discussing and comparing Nazi Germany to Imperial Japan is that the latter was actually a very different beast from the former. The Japanese Empire was formally created in 1895 when Taiwan became its first overseas colony, while the Nazi Party was only founded in 1920, thus making the Japanese Empire at least two decades older. The Japanese also had a tendency to carry out experiments with democracy even during the most unlikely of times; Japanese rule of Taiwan actually loosened and liberalized as time went by in spite of the Showa military government, with autonomous councils being formed even during the final months of World War II.
What's even more bizarre and fascinating is that Japan accepted large numbers of Jewish migrants refugees when the US and Canada were locking entire ships full of people out.
The Nazis and Italian Fascists had a one-party state in place.
Meanwhile, the Japanese military regime did allow numerous parties in, and held regular elections. Most famously, the socialist party was kept in, although they split and collapsed during the war.
The main point of comparison between the Nazis and Imperial Japan is the brutality of them both, and the sheer scale of human rights violations they did, as well as the ultranationalism within them both.
Edited by TheWildWestPyro on Jan 23rd 2019 at 1:35:14 AM
Cringe but free
On the other hand, well, democracy in the Empire of Japan was basically doomed from the start. The Meiji Constitution was written with a backdoor for the military to trigger a collapse of the civilian government at will, effectively giving the Ministries of the Army and Navy unlimited veto power. The constant security crackdown undertaken in the name of Red Scare really didn't help, and neither did all the state security laws signed under the Yamagata admin. On top of that, when military power in the government did get limited during the Taishō era, it just caused the ultranationalist cults in the military to lash out more with terror attacks and assassinations, as well as infiltrate more and more of the civilian government, dismantling Japan's democratic experiment years before the Emperor's death put a final nail on its coffin.
Japan in the '20s through early '30s was basically a train wreck in slow-motion: it could've gone so much differently - and yet somehow everything that could go wrong, did.
Echoing hymn of my fellow passerine | Art blog (under construction)
February 26th Incident.
To be fair one of the reasons that the later causes so much controversy even today, is because there was a lot of them which were legitimately volunteers...
Which of course muddies the waters, and gives the nationalists a way to deflect the ones that weren't :/
But the reality is that a lot of the Empires war crimes are a lot more.... complicated... in nature then those of Nazi Germany.... like they were absolutely horrifically brutal events... but it wasn't the same "for the evil" that the holocaust was.
Its one of the things that makes that period in time even more.... fucked up then it already was.
She/Her Pronouns
I mean, 731 didn't really hold any practical purpose for existing. It really did seem to be for the sadism of the scientists involved.
And I kinda both agree and disagree for the rest. Sure, Imperial Japan didn't have the same type of industrialized horror like the Nazis, but it was still an empire and did commit a lot of atrocities in its name. Its why I compared it to Britain rather than the Nazis, but that doesn't absolve any of those parties.
Edited by AzurePaladin on Jan 23rd 2019 at 7:55:44 AM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Cringe but free
Genocide Olympics is only a worthwhile exercise if you're looking to whitewash something, honestly. Atrocity victims are atrocity victims, regardless of whether they're worked to death at a British tea plantation in Ceylon, bayoneted in a ditch in Poland by a middle-aged Orpo reservist, shot in a basement by the NKVD or starved to death in a Vietnamese village after the local IJA garrison confiscate all their rice.
Edited by eagleoftheninth on Jan 23rd 2019 at 5:10:49 AM
Echoing hymn of my fellow passerine | Art blog (under construction)
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
One unique characteristic about Japanese war crimes is how there are recorded incidents where Japanese troops massacre a group of Westerners, and then bother to give them a Buddhist or Shinto funeral - depending on who was the closest military chaplain - once the atrocities have been finished.
It's as if the religious rites helped the Japanese troops feel better about themselves for what they just did.
Oh, bother.
I wonder if they did the same for their victims at the Rape of Nanking.
I'd look it up, but the whole thing disgusts me too much.
Disgusted, but not surprised
She/Her Pronouns
Honestly, I don't particularly care if they did feel bad afterwords or not. They were war criminals of the cruelest sort regardless.
Unit 731 was told to create biological weapons, and then left to there own devices with absolutely no oversight, allowing what happened to happen.
The practical purpose was having just come off WWI where those kinds of devices were acceptable, they were intended to play catch up.
You are right that should have been hung from thin wires, the fact that they were not disgusts me to this day.... in addition to there many crimes against humanity, most people don't know that one of them (it is still unsolved as to which one, but the chemical agent used IS identified to them) went on to murder every one in a bank and steal the money after the war.
Why the Americans decided to let them off the hook after the war is beyond me. :/
Seriously, whoever was in charge of that decision really fucked up.
I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen, since Nanking was a result of using undisciplined poorly supplied troops in a campaign where the other side of the engagement was using salt the earth tactics.
The commanding officers gave explicit orders not to enter the city proper with the troops, but given that they weren't actually present in the field, the field officers decided. "Fuck that we have no food and shelter", and sent them in.
The result was one of the most horrifying acts to happen in the pacific... One that the LDP keeps trying to ingnore, and has had it come back to bite them when they tried to get veterans who were there to talk about how "It wasn't really that bad"
...Only to get the response from them that yes, yes it was every bit as bad as portrayed.
And then to ignore it because it doesn't fit with the LDP's idea of history.
Which kind of related to the the reason for.
It's as if the religious rites helped the Japanese troops feel better about themselves for what they just did.
What is going on with these are you are dealing with incidents where the commanding officers are literally unable to control there troops, since they got by almost entirely on nationalism and corporeal punishment.
In those cases where whoever is getting the rites done does legitimately feel bad about what happened, most likely because they opposed the incident in the first place, but for whatever reason were unable to stop it from happening.
Troops are not a monolithic block, and the Imperial troops used in WWII were kinda... shitty, with no quality control what so ever... Not helped at all by the rigid command structure, that meant as soon as a commanding officer WASN'T present no one knew what to do and just did whatever they felt like.
Its not that this absolves blame, but I am hoping that it adds some clarity to what went on.
Edited by Imca on Jan 23rd 2019 at 9:36:34 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Imperial Japan was the proof that you don't need a grandiose and mostly unified apocalyptic ideology and organization to carry on apocalyptic acts.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jan 23rd 2019 at 12:47:15 PM
Watch me destroying my country
Yup.
Just people acting under stress. :|
Don't forget the meth.
Cringe but free
World War II makes so much more sense when you remember that everyone on the Axis side was basically on meth all the time.
Unsanctioned rampages like Nanjing and Manila only accounted for a small amount of the damages, though. The strategic, targeted atrocities like the Three Alls policy, the Wuhan chemical attacks and the expropriation of foodstuff and forced labourers from occupied Southeast Asia killed way, way more people.
Echoing hymn of my fellow passerine | Art blog (under construction)
World War II makes so much more sense when you remember that everyone on the Axis side was basically on meth all the time.
That, to put it gently, is a gross misrepresentation of the motives of the European Axis, at least. Things like The Holocaust, Generalplan Ost, Hungerplan etc. weren't some kind of meth-induced crazy move, they were calculated mass murder plots that were quite effectively carried out, logistical problems and hubris/poor judgment regarding the feasibility of a Soviet war nonwithstanding. There is a difference between "crazy" and "evil" and Axis deeds fall firmly into the latter category.
Edited by SeptimusHeap on Jan 24th 2019 at 5:35:33 PM
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
South Korea says troop talks deadlocked as U.S. demands 'unacceptable' funding increase
Shin Megami Tensei IV
I don't think that Eagle is denying that at all. Especially with the mention that stuff as the Triple AAA policy being made "rationally".
She/Her Pronouns
Sorry I'm late.
>Imca: I believe Mac Arthur himself let 731 go free. In case anyone needs another reason to hate him.
>Terminus Est: Truly, this administration is the best at negotiating!
Edited by AzurePaladin on Jan 24th 2019 at 1:23:47 PM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Indeed, about the only good thing I can say about him was that he realized that the Emperor was better just having his power removed.
@Topic In General: To be quite honest, WWII is just bluntly one of the most horrific points in recentnote human history... Where you had...
- Internment of Civilians
- Execution of War Prisoners because they could
- Deliberate chemical and incendiary attacks on civilian centers.
- Mass Rape and Looting
- Siphoning food away from there own colonies, causing millions to starve that weren't dieing already.
- Attacks on neutral nations.
And that's just the stuff that both the Axis and the Allies got in on, and not even covering things like Industrial Genocide, which is one of the reasons that the Allies are still the good guys despite what the nationalists say.
It honestly disgusts me how every one in the media and politics is so quick to portray it as a heroic event where they were innocent, and refuse to acknowledge or teach the horrors they committed.(one of the reasons I absolutely hate the LDP)
Because the reality is that the exact opposite, it was a horrific war where way too many people (See 731 and Operation Paperclip) got away with what they did with absolutely no punishment. :/
"War is war and Hell is Hell, and of the two War is worse... There aren't any innocent bystanders in hell" Is never more true...
Edited by Imca on Jan 24th 2019 at 1:53:47 AM
Servant of the Omnissiah
History is replete with pretty horrific atrocities, but the ethnic cleansing and savagery of World War II is something else entirely.
The only thing beating it out (percentage wise, and which shows the perfidy of statistics) is Genghis Khan's little jaunt across Eurasia - one of the few times in Human History that the world's population noticeably decreased for a few years.
Arguably, they were pretty brutal too, but they at least didn't do it out of any perceived moral obligation, but simply for the loot and glory. Stomach-turning, but they're slightly better than the far-Right fanatics driving World War II doing the same and worse believing it's right.
There's a reason the Mongol Horde was called The Scourge of God. Because they were that much of a nightmare. Somehow, World War II beats it out for sheer nastiness.
Really says something unfortunate, I suppose, about humanity.
Edited by TechPriest90 on Jan 24th 2019 at 6:39:55 AM
I hold the secrets of the machine.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Hypocresy and Self Righterousness really makes stuff like that "worse"? I don't care if th Serial Killer enjoys it For the Evulz or is a religious fanatic. I'm still dead.
Seriously. I don't get that obsession with acting like if Self Righterousness makes things "worse". And honestky? I don't think that we can rule out the Mongol expansionism of it.
Also, Tamerlane's wars didn't kill a comparable amount of people as well?
Thought I still wonder how the Right managed to justify it's existence after WW 2 to be honest.
Yeah, Mc Arthur was a mistake. That's one of the many reasons why is hard to use Imperial Japan as villains in modern western media. There not the same.feeling of unambiguous heroism as with the Nazis.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jan 24th 2019 at 10:07:34 AM
Watch me destroying my country
I'd politely disagree. I'd say there's still excellent potential for Imperial Japanese villains and unambiguous heroism in there.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Oh. I agree definitely. I talk about the perception. The American Pacific Front is remembered mostly for Pearl Harbor, the Atomic Bombs and that USA wasn't as harsh as it should have been. The war was extremely black and white, but the latter two taint its memory. And for the rest of East Asia, well...that it continued being a mess with mass murders didn't really help.
Thought I still say that for a Imperial Japan based fictional story (just as the Nazi ones), you have to get forcefully a asian protagonist to avoid the Unfortunate Implications.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jan 24th 2019 at 10:31:04 AM
Watch me destroying my country
It baffles me when I see so-called anti-imperialists defending things like the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere as standing up to Western imperialism when they were created by a nation known as the Empire of Japan.