Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

I have actualy noticed that myself, all my guy friends hate Sylvaine, all my lady friends are either indifferent to him or like him... its... quite an interesting dichotomy due to how he acts.

I feel its partly due to what you said, it makes him feel clean compared to the creepers we have to deal with in day to day life... which is some how uhhh able to acquire a fanbase, Junpei from P 3 P was also in a similar situation of every guy I knew disliking him, and ladies indifferent or wishing he was one of the romance options.

But I also feel there is two more elements to it.

First, Sylvaine is off the top of my head the only boy I can recall chasing YOU, which due to the way cultural pressure works is in a way a relief, every other option you have to start the relationship with them, you have to be the one to take the lead and push it... which due to the cultural pressures we receive can be... akward.

Second, I have to wonder if desensitization is involved as well, we deal with this bullshit literaly all the time... so when some one comes along who at least has boundaries about it, and isnt stalking us and acting like we belong to them... it feels okay? They arent as bad as the rest so they arent bad at all? Kind of depressing to think about but yea. :/

Many of the people I know who like Sylvain tend to be people who like shipping him with Felix, which sidesteps the whole thing.

Why Felix?

Because they're childhood friends and have a paired ending together?

Certainly seems like the sort of thing that shippers like, especially for a same-sex pairing.

@Imca: Uh? Most males I know like Jumpei. Interesting.

So I guess Sylvain is portrayed as being very forward and somewhat pushy but won't violate boundaries if pushed away?

That is how he normaly plays out yes.

, huh, neat, now I am curious about demographic breakdown of the two charecters appeal.

Edited by Imca on Dec 9th 2019 at 2:28:21 AM

I will said this is hold to a concept of my which I call the person-ficional line.

what is this? pretty much the imaginary line that divide what a person feel is abstract and made up and therefore "fictional" and the thing that we feel close and therefore "real", which is why we can be mad for a rape in game of thrones but not for the gratitous amount of violence even if the two are made up: one feel distint, the other does not.

Now in this case, I will said that Sylvaine does have a clearly "cute bad guy angle" around him, more often than not, bad guys are not really "Bad" per se, just misunderstood and maybe somewhat douchy(granted bad writing make them really douchy and karma houdini to boot but you get it) is badness feel more plot and character relate and therefore "charming", maybe because he dosent cross the boundary to real harassment.

I said this because I have noted it was a persistent problem in yaoi having bastard boyfriend and the fandom absolutly love it in a way that was creepy and quite similar to how male fandom act in general.

x3 Pretty much, yeah. He's the kind of guy who'll use a cheesy pickup line whenever he sees you, but if you say, "stop, I'm uncomfortable," he'll apologize and leave you alone. So for women who are used to guys pushing past that pickup line he's not too bad, but for men who aren't used to being hit on it feels more pushy than anything they're used to.

Edited by IniuriaTalis on Dec 9th 2019 at 5:31:14 AM

For what it's worth, I (female) can't stand Sylvain, while my friend who played the game (male) didn't mind him.

That may be a reflection of the fact that - as we've discussed in the Three Houses threads - Sylvain's house is chock full of otome stereotypes and he falls right into one that I absolutely hate, the womanizer who's only a womanizer for deep psychological reasons, and once he's "fixed" he'll be totally faithful and stuff. Bleh.

Edited by Tarlonniel on Dec 9th 2019 at 5:29:28 AM

@Tarlonniel: Yeah, that definitely does fit Sylvain. Huh, Blue Lions really is the otome house, isn't it?

The "otome House"?

I guess his house/faction is made to be a Call-Back to Otome (Dating Sim for girls) tropes, where all the characters fit some archetype from that genre

Edited by KazuyaProta on Dec 9th 2019 at 10:37:46 AM

Otome are Japanese games aimed at girls, where they can choose from a bunch of hot guys to be their love interest. Since the Blue Lions has more hot guys, is much more popular among female players, and seems to have been written with a female Avatar in mind much moreso than the other houses, players like to joke that it's otome. Especially since its characters can be loosely fit into otome archetypes, and its story is much more emotional and character-driven than the other houses', another otome stereotype.

You can also find people calling the Black Eagles the waifu house/harem house for similar reasons.

Edited by IniuriaTalis on Dec 9th 2019 at 10:41:18 AM

I'm presently about to start on a playthrough of a game called RED EMBRACE: HOLLYWOOD with a female avatar since it's designed for either a female or gay male avatar as a vampire romance.

I would do anything for Vampire: The Masquerade games—Set to Meatloaf.

It's in preparation for Vampire: The Masquerade: Coteries coming out in a few days.

Does Dimitri fit into any of those archetypes? Just for curiosity's sake?

He's the Troubled, but Cute prince, who's a good man at heart but can lose himself to a dark path if the player doesn't save him with The Power of Love.

Haven't played the game yet but yeah I don't see what Sylvaine as sexual harrasment. It's just open flirting to me.

I think some men are uncomfortable by it because men are usually conditioned to be the chaser not the chased. Having someone pursue them sexually/romantically isnt something many men are used to.

It’s less about what he does and more the attitude and intent behind it.

x4 Dimitri fits so squarely into the male Yandere types I've seen in otome that I had his "deeply troubled nature" reveal pegged from the start of the game.

I don't really think anyone should to be used to being pursued sexually and/or romantically from opposite sides of a teacher/student boundary. At least, I hope that's not considered to be normal anywhere.

Fire Emblem's Support system (the glorified dating sim elements) have a serious problem on account of the teacher/student dynamic that the game puts forward. The game takes place in a military academy where you play as Byleth, a professor assigned to one of the titular Three Houses.

Sylvain is a student in the Blue Lions house. Like most of the students, he can transfer classes if he's impressed by Byleth's skills. Most of the students are recruitable if you meet a specific skill requirement; you have to be proficient in what they're interested in to convince them that transferring to your class would be worth their time.

Though, unlike most students, Sylvain will transfer classes regardless of your skills as a teacher if you're female.

Sylvain isn't the only character that presents a problem in this regard. Honestly, most of the game's A-Supports, S-Supports, and Epilogues between students and Byleth are kinda gross under the context that, male or female, Byleth is a teacher and this student is standing here declaring their undying romantic desire for them.

So there's a lot of problematic Supports. Sylvain's just the most visible about it. While other students are like, "Wow, this relationship we've built up over time has me thinking about things," Sylvain's transparently trying to tap Dat Sexy Teacher Ass from day 1.

On the other side of the spectrum, there is Manuela. Manuela is a teacher who can be recruited to "help teach your class", which means joining your party and letting you train her skills like you do with the students. As a faculty member, she doesn't have as many Supports as the students do.

Manuela is a retired singer in her mid-30's who is equal parts angry and horny at all times. Many conversations with her revolve around how pissed off she is that she can't land a husband and she drinks herself into a stupor every night.

Manuela has Supports with five of the students:

• Edelgard
• Ferdinand
• Dorothea
• Sylvain
• Lorenz

She'll marry Ferdinand, Lorenz, or Dorothea if the game grants her a Paired Epilogue with that character. She also hits on Sylvain. Actual quote,

But she ultimately decides that he's an asshole and there are better fish in the sea.

Fire Emblem: Three Houses has a really gross teacher/student romance problem.

To be honest this was a predictable result. Fire emblem has become increasingly otaku oriented in the last few years, and with a game where the premise is you as a teacher, it'd be more remarkable if there wasn't any gross student/teacher romance stuff.

I'm not against giving players the option to engage in highly unequal romantic pairings of a very dubious nature in games.

Just as long as the lesson "this won't turn out well, like, for anybody" also gets drummed into heads. Teacher romancing a pupil (or visa versa)? The police should get involved — or blackmail — or a little vignette of how the relationship plays out over 15 years of inequality causing financial and/or personal grief, including the fallout on any or all kids.

In a blunt, unequivocally "welcone to a bad ending; try again; but, this time, try not thinking with the rosy trope filter" way.

Because... when it comes to age gaps and other massive rift points (like an unaddressed anxiety or personality disorder in the mix)... the outcome most often isn't the fairy tale love match.

Bastard Boyfriend with issues? Possible murder outcome after years of abuse, not fix-the-guy-and-get-happy.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Dec 10th 2019 at 4:36:42 PM

I know when (many moons ago) when I was considering being a teacher it was DRILLED into our heads that no matter how 'mature' the student seems and even if you are in post secondary where the student is a legal adult even if you are in different departments/areas of the school. NEVER EVER EVER GET INTO A RELATIONSHIP WITH A STUDENT. EVER.

Even if everything goes 'right' it will always be looked at 'wrong' if the student graduates and is no longer a student at your school then...maybe.

So the fascination with Student/teacher relationships having happly ever afters always confused me to no end.

Alternatively, there is the "do dumbass right, at least" option.

Yay, the unprofessional relationship works out because, 1) ethics were followed to the letter and one changed schools/ workplace/ whatever before things got seriously serious, 2) sustained support from friends and relatives is shown to exist and 3) regular relationship and financial counselling is shown.

Work for that happy ending, dammit!

Edited by Euodiachloris on Dec 10th 2019 at 5:00:15 PM