The Scrappy Cleanup

As someone who also frequents online FE spaces, I wouldn't be opposed to moving her either. I have yet to find anyone who actually likes or defends her in a long while; meanwhile, I've seen more than a few comments and/or You Tube videos callong her the worst-written character in the game.

YMMV.Avatar The Last Airbender

• The Scrappy: Fire Lord Azulon, father of Ozai and Iroh, is hated for being introduced as a Flat Character, who’s basically a rip-off of his second son and lacks of intimidating presence, with his order to have Ozai kill Zuko is non-sensical, not helped that his reason to continue war is not given depth.

Besides the fact he's supposed to be disliked, we've deleted other Avatar-verse examples as more forgotten/irrelevant to fans rather than remembered for their problems, which seems the case for Azulon as I've never seen any unintentional dislike of them before this.

Doesn't Azulon have like, one scene? Or is this about some extended universe stuff?

That's why I say remove him. He doesn't have the presence in the work to have enough impact/memorability to have a significant unintentional hatedom (I've seen no evidence of hate before this).

Peri from Fire Emblem Fates was brought up here before and deemed not to count.

One of the posts even brings up a Famitsu popularity poll where Peri landed in the upper half of the ranks, which suggests that she's, at the very least, decently liked in the game's home country.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Jan 4th 2024 at 4:13:56 AM

Yeah so she's Americans Hate Tingle.

Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.

Update: the troper who added Azulon added the bolded:

• They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character: Azulon, which is the primarily reason of his hatedom. He was only briefly seen in one flashback episode and mentioned in passing in another. Despite being the Fire Lord before Ozai and despite the fact that most of the Hundred Year War passed during his reign, we know next to nothing about him.

Besides Wasted being the opposite, this has crossed the point where their addition seems personal agenda driven as opposed to fan consensus. Any objections before I remove?

As somebody pointed out on the discussion page for Star Wars if C-3PO and Jar Jar are listed on the page for historic purposes shouldn’t the same apply to Anakin in the prequels and Ahsoka in the Clone Wars?

I don't have any objections to it being cut since I feel it's misuse too since he doesn't seem to be considered a "Perfectly Good Character". As for what you brought up about his The Scrappy entry at (x7), if he actually is hated, I think it counts because Hate Sinks can be scrappies if they're hated for unintended reasons. However, since he seems to be more forgotten (or maybe ignored) than hated, I'm leaning on saying the entry doesn't count.

I think so assuming they did fulfill the requirements. EDIT: I'm not sure if there is a policy on this, though.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on Jan 5th 2024 at 7:13:54 AM

Anakin/Darth Vader (only treated as separate enough to count characters by those who want to hate the former) I'd say no because they were popular in the Original Trilogy, it's just the Prequels they're hated so not consistently enough (and he's under Base-Breaking Character instead of Scrappy, so moving him requires an argument/evidence to do so). Ashoka was Rescued within a few years so don't believe they were hated long enough to count.

But I would be open to adding them if we agreed on some objective rules for historic examples (how long they are hated before being rescued, ballparking 2-5 years, Ashoka would thus count as The Clone Wars S5 finale is what fully Rescued her) and they fit.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jan 5th 2024 at 6:24:15 AM

Season 5 finale? She was only really annoying in the movie, season 1, and maybe season 2? She got rescued pretty quickly

in any case we’d need to set a hard standard. For example a lot of people feel The Clone Wars rescued Jar Jar which means he was potentially hated for as little as 9 years

It goes back to the debate over if Rescued from the Scrappy Heap examples supersede normal Scrappy examples or not; the page technically claims to be a subtrope but it also says it doesn't always need to be for scrappies specifically, so it's in a weird gray area. Figuring that out would tell us if historical scrappy examples are legit or not.

Edit: Found the relevant thread

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 5th 2024 at 10:09:53 AM

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

If we talk about Star Wars, should Rey, Rose Tico and Admiral Holdo remain base-breakers or changed to Scrappies, because to me they have enough fanbase

Also, know I get about Azulon stuff, just saw him listed as Scrappy Wiki and thought he is actually hated. But now understand, he’s more of a wasted character rather than poorly written one

That and Villains/Pure Evil Wiki lack/were made by those who disagreed with this wiki's standards so are probably best avoided as sources.

We now have a decision on the Crowner for The Scrappy (and related tropes) on Reality Show contestants.

Consensus is that it only counts if the work itself talks about the audience reaction - and in that case it seems likely to end up on the main work page with an [[invoked]] tag, as well as (or instead of) YMMV, as it's become part of the show itself.

With that in mind:

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• TheScrappy.The Bachelor has been cut. No valid examples.
• TheScrappy.Hells Kitchen has been cut. For the moment Elise, who appeared in Season 9 and Season 17, has been kept (apparently when she returns in S17, other contestants directly talk about her first appearance as "the most hated" contestant the show's ever had, so that seems valid).
• TheScrappy.Ru Pauls Drag Race has been cut. It looks like one early season contestant (Shannel) had her Scrappy status acknowledged in a later episode when she returned to the show, so just checking that now.
• TheScrappy.Survivor has been cut. No valid examples.
• All Series.American Idol examples have been cut from TheScrappy.Live Action TV.
• Kara DioGuardi has been cut from YMMV.American Idol, which didn't have the same Scrappy list for the show as the LiveActionTV page. Kara's a judge, not a contestant, so we shouldn't have been troping her as a character even before the policy change.

Edit: Cut the The Great British Bake Off examples as well, for the same reasons.

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Any concerns about any of these?
Plenty more cleanup to go, and we'll probably want to acknowledge the new policy in pinned posts on relevant cleanup threads, as well as in The Scrappy and Administrivia.Real Life Troping.
Thanks!

Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 7th 2024 at 6:08:55 PM

On a different note, I've also cut this from the live action series page:

• Trading Spaces, a home design show produced by TLC has Hildi Santos-Tomas. Her designs often range from hideous to Jerkassish (she once put an image of herself on one homeowner's wall "just for fun", wallpapered the room of a couple with wine labels after they mentioned they didn't drink, did an entire room in Asian Modern decor after being outright told by the owners that they specifically didn't want Asian decor, and even hung all the furniture in another homeowner's room on the ceiling, making the room completely useless) to outright dangerous (she covered all the walls in yet another room with hay, with the homeowners later reporting that the room's bookcase was in danger of falling on their children) so that she was widely loathed by viewers. Bonus points for pulling all this crap in people's private homes.

Santos-Tomas is a real designer and presenter, not a fictional character.

So any thoughts on how many years/installments one needs to be considered The Scrappy before you're cemented onto the page, regardless of later developments? Not only do we need to determine this for characters that were once considered scrappies that later got rescued, but we would need to consider the possibility of recurring characters getting the label even if they were liked or considered a Base-Breaking Character in prior installments.

As an example, Sherrif J.W. Pepper from the James Bond series is a rare instance of a recurring character in that franchise that isn't a part of the CIA, MI6, or SPECTRE. The page for his debut film, Live and Let Die, lists him as a Base-Breaking Character, yet the page for his second and final film, The Man with the Golden Gun, lists him as The Scrappy for that particular installment. The page notes that even fans of Pepper in LLD didn't like his schtick in TMWTGG.

Normally I would just delete the latter entry since given its same actor for Bond based on our prior rules (as they are indeed the same character in every way, with the actors for Pepper and Bond being consistent in both films), but if we're allowing characters that have since been rescued to be listed for historical purposes, shouldn't the inverse be true? Characters that were considered liked or tolerable in earlier installments but widely disliked in later outings?

Edited by Mariofan99 on Jan 8th 2024 at 9:29:55 AM

Again, the actual rule is that subtropes supersede the supertropes. So if there's a rescued example for the same character, technically we do not keep The Scrappy up. Time doesn't matter; historical significance doesn't matter. And if it's not a proper subtrope, then The Scrappy shouldn't be deleted at all. In either case, it doesn't matter how historic the example is.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

So the Jar Jar and Scrappy Doo entries go?

IDK. We still haven't figured out if Rescued is a valid subtrope or not. The trope talk is always open.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

All for cutting Azulon from this trope, he's meant to be disliked and AFAIK very few fans hate him for any reason outside of the reasons we're supposed to hate him.

Tonight I dine on monkey soup.

What's the current ruling where a character is The Scrappy in one work within a continuity or franchise, then Rescued from the Scrappy Heap in a later work with its own YMMV page?

I'm sure they used to be individually listed for the works, partly to avoid spoilers for sequels etc., but it's been a while.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13598973560A64980100&page=240#comment-5997 that an ongoing thread or are you suggesting I make one?