Cleanup: Fridge pages

In particular the fridge logic pages. I mean...they are full of troll examples that are left over from when it was called "headscratcher".

These problems are generally discussed in the Trope Repair Shop or one of the Special Efforts forums, depending on the type of issue.

When TRS has space for new threads, the Fridge pages would be good to bring up there; I think most people acknowledge they're in need of cleaning or an overhaul. In the meantime, since this isn't the appropriate place for a specific discussion about them, I'll holler for a lock.

Actually, since we know what needs fixing (natter, negativity, etc), this is a Special Efforts issue rather than a TRS one. I'm going to holler for a move.

Well, now that we've got a thread for it, let's start with a nice, easy, and totally not horrifying page: Fridge.Homestuck.

Any Homestuck fans around want to help out with this one?

Fridge.Once Upon A Time also needs quite a bit of help, but I think I can manage that one on my own. Since, you know, I actually follow the series.

EDIT: Got Fridge.Once Upon A Time.

edited 27th Jan '13 5:46:11 PM by Discar

Reviving this thread as requested.

Oh wow it's back. Neat.

Anyways I want to point out this entry from Fridge.With Pearl And Ruby Glowing, specifically the second bullet:

• Pearl and ruby. White and red. Semen and blood.
  • Especially as Haunted (2005), the book that this fic takes its structure from and contains numerous shout-outs to, has a character refer to his habit of masturbating underwater as "Pearl Diving" (with his semen being the aforementioned "pearls").

The first bullet by itself seems pretty dicey (at least to me, anyways), but the second bullet has almost nothing to do with the first. What do I do with it?

I don't even like this fic why does it keep living in my head rent free...

Well, definitely remove the subbullet.

I'm down for moving Fridge Logic debates to Headscratchers/, but not so much for deleting Fridge Brilliance or Fridge Horror examples without more reasons beyond disagreement.

Edited by WarJay77 on Mar 8th 2022 at 1:30:16 PM

I distinctly remember a Pokémon Detective Pikachu entry that was like "Oh, Tim's biracial because it's a reference to Shiny Pokemon!" or something and it got removed because of how dumb it was. I want to make sure we don't have any more Fridge entries that are... like that.

Well, yeah, that's why I specified reasons beyond disagreement. The Fridge namespace has been under a lot of debate lately here, and I don't want to take any impulsive actions.

This entry is on The Simpsons S 22 E 5 Lisa Simpson This Isnt Your Life:

• Fridge Brilliance: However Unintentionally Unsympathetic and a Downer Ending it is, one could realize Marge guilt-tripping Lisa is an unintentional case of Laser-Guided Karma; Lisa has singlehandedly set the family, and arguably even the town, back with her constant protests and insistince on always "doing the right thing" (i.e, forcing her family to go to gay pride parades, turning down a constantly-growing amount of money because she didn't like how they got it, even trying to invade Bart's dreams to turn him into a vegetarian). Arguably, considering nobody seems to be on her side, this could be a plan amongst the entire rest of the family. Not to mention, it's likely Springfield Elementary wouldn't survive without her GPA buoying their school average, and it's been shown before her smartness stems from being a bit of a big fish in a small pond- regardless of whatever help she gets, she may just merely benefit from natural smartness and an overinflated ego due to the relative underperformance of her fellow students.

I don't see how this is Fridge Brilliance, or even an Alternate Character Interpretation. It just seems like a long complaint built from 20 years of Lisa's shortcomings and character flaws. Also, the number of times words like "could", "may", and "arguably" are used just makes the example seem like a wonk.

Personally, I would cut that for being a stretch in terms of being correct usage.

Do we have actual guidelines on what can and can't be done in fridge pages? It would be a bit difficult to do cleanup without knowing exactly what needs to be cleansed.

Nope, not really, aside from the obvious like "no bashing" and "must not be completely fabricated".

This one from Avataro Sentai Donbrothers:

• Just WHAT are the Juto that managed not only to have Sonoi in a trance, but also make everyone in a bus disappear as it headed into a tunnel, and made Sonoi reel back from shock as he snapped out of said trance?

This isn't Fridge Horror at all, it's just plain Horror. All that stuff happened on-screen, and while the monster itself hasn't appeared, it seems reasonable to think that its appearance and identity will be explained later.

Doing some grammar and cleanup on Fridge.Bo Boi Boy and this one I'm bringing up may be an easy fix but I'd like to be sure. In the Fridge Brilliance folder at the top:

• If Tempest is any indication of what a 3rd tier Elemental Form is like, it makes sense that BoBoiBoy Timber would be the first one he'd ever try to intentionally acquire. Leaf is his most docile and gentle form, which is the least likely to go berserk and rampage.
  • There is also the possibility that he and Quake would not go berserk if they got their 3rd tier forms since Timber and Crystal aren't related with any kind of natural disaster.
  • Issue 22 confirms that the Crystal form is also not immune to going berserk because Hang Kasa states that when he was still young and gained the Crystal form, he lost control and caused many crystals to burst out in the cave.

The sub-bullets contradict themselves so I think removing them is fine.

Is this really a Fridge example? It seems to veer off into some kind of amateur armchair thesis about real life than anything that's genuinely "fridge" about the show in question.

From: FridgeBrilliance.RWBY

• The 4 Kingdoms are good representations of the types of countries that exist in real life.
  • Vale: the isolationist country that takes advantage of its natural borders to shun outside wars, with peace as its primary objective... on the surface at any rate, as its crafty leaders realize that they cannot stay isolated (Ozpin's talk about how all of Remnant is connected), and realize their fate is connected with the outside world, so they take quieter measures (Ozpin sending Qrow and other Huntsmen to investigate) to get a head start on potential threats. Parallels: The United States prior to WW1, WW2, and the military industrial complex (Natural Borders: the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. Crafty Leader subtly influencing foreign affairs: FDR sending aid to the Allies through a legal loophole long before the US officially joined the war). Vale is never depicted as isolationist. In fact, Vale is hosting the 40th anniversary Vytal Festival, which requires throwing open its doors to the cultures of the rest of world. It's also a later plot point that the only kingdom trying to cut itself off from the world is Atlas and even that's more about General Ironwood's Fatal Flaw than anything else. Vacuo does has a general isolationist mentality as a result of past devastation caused by other kingdoms, but still accepts refugees from all the other Huntsmen Academies (albeit begrudgingly).
  • Atlas: The militarily oriented kingdom that is at the forefront of science and technology in the world, but is particularly well known for its massive army, and is derided for indoctrinating their citizens to believe in their kingdom first (See: World of Remnant video on Atlas). Tends to deal with problems with excessive firepower. Parallels: All these bullet points can just be summarised as Atlas being fridge comparable to real life countries or empires that become militarily dominant and place a high priority on military R&D as a result. The only valid specific comparison is that Atlas very much is the "Silicon Valley" of the setting, but that runs into the question of whether such a comparison is intentional or fridge.
    • Again, the United States after WW1, WW2, and the military industrial complex. Forefront of science and technology: Silicon Valley alone is probably responsible for more of 21st century technology than any other group/region on the planet. Massive army: the US spends more on its military than the next 6 countries combined. Derided for brainwashing: Many (particularly in areas that have low approval ratings of the US) believe that the United States' exports of movies and pop-culture is a way of exerting influence over foreign cultures, and American patriotism is much higher than many other countries. Tends to deal with problems with excessive firepower: Again, how people view this depends on the person's views of the US, but the US does have a lot of drones, really really big bombs, and is thus far the only country to use a nuclear weapon in war.
    • The British Empire at its height. Forefront of science and technology: Britain was at the heart of the industrial revolution and one of the reasons for its dominance was because of sheer amount of goods Britain churned out. Massive army: Britain spent so much on their navy that the taxes to its citizenry were astronomically high. The Empire even had to extend taxes over to their colonies, though that admittedly didn't go well. Derided for brainwashing: a common tactic for colonizing an area would be to create schools to indoctrinate the local students. Tends to deal with problems with excessive firepower: The British Empire's page on our site refers to the main principles as "Divide and Conquer and argumentum ad baculum", and the rest reads like, well, a colonial empire that didn't give 2 #$%^'s about the people it slaughtered.
    • Another connection to both, Britain was known for its control of the seas, and America has had complete air dominance for 30 years. What is Atlas most well known for? Its massive fleet of flying ships.
    • Atlas's newfound reliance on robots to protect the populace can be a mirror to the US's increasing use of drone strikes. Similarly, the fact that their technology could be turned against their own troops could be a complement to criticisms of the US drone programs, that they endanger civilian lives.
  • Mistral: A massive empire that is too large to govern itself, but is united by a common culture. Parallels: Mistral is based on Asian themes and does have some intentional comparisons to the Classical World as well (one city is (loosely) based on a sort of conceptual amalgam of the Greek city of Argos and the US city of San Francisco, and there is an in-universe saying that "Mistral wasn't built in a day"). However, there's nothing about Mistral that warrents discussing Gaulish attacks on Rome or people worshipping a single god — that's not fridge, that's just a tangent. In fact, Mistral is the largest kingdom in the world, and full of break-away examples of people not wanting central rule and trying to set up their own cities/kingdoms, but they're not doing it via attacks, they're doing it via wealth and privilege. The examples below try to compare to the Chinese Dynasties, then admits that it's not a workable comparison.
    • The Roman Empire during its decline. Massive empire that is too large to govern: Rome was under constant attacks by the Gauls, and (please forgive the oversimplification) after Rome stopped expanding and no longer had a unifying force of conquest, it fell apart. United by a Common Culture: after Christianity spread throughout Rome's borders, the people all worshiped the same God. Whether or not they agreed about the interpretation...
    • The Chinese Dynasties: Massive empire that is too large to govern: This is not that great of a parallel, as Chinese dynasties were generally pretty stable, but the Mongol empire which conquered China essentially was this after Genghis Khan died. United by a Common Culture: Chinese Dynasties used the concept of the "Mandate of Heaven", which basically gave justification for overthrowing dynasties, and keeping them in power. As such, the idea was very popular for rulers and revolutionaries, and even has some influence on modern day politics in China. Then there's Confucianism, which is like a religion and a philosophy on life, and has influenced a lot of Asia and even Western thought.
  • Vacuo: a prosperous area that is isolated to the point where they don't have as advanced technology as the outside world, but has massive natural resources (Dust) that are being taken advantage of by foreign invaders. Due to this foreign intervention, it's almost a lawless wasteland, with multiple factions vying for control. While there may be a central power in the area (Shade Academy), it is in no way in control. Parallels: These are just pure shoehorning, and full of unfortunate implications to boot. Vacuo's situation is so generic that there's a lot from real life history that could be cherry-picked for comparison.
    • The Middle East, Syria in particular: Doesn't have as advanced technology as other countries: A lot of Syria's weapons are from the US or Russia, and militarily the Middle East as a whole is nothing compared to the US, Russia, or probably even China. Massive Natural Resources: Oil, according to Wikipedia, the Middle east has almost 50% of the world's oil reserves. Foreign intervention: The US, Russia, and multiple other countries have invaded the Middle East at some point in history, and for the sake of brevity and sanity, let's just say it went badly for everyone involved. Lawless Wasteland/Central Power with dubious control: While not true of the whole region, Syria in particular (as of winter 2016) is a very dangerous place to be, with rebel groups fighting the government. The US Government has a travel warning for Syria, purely because of the fighting. While not benevolent by any means, the Syrian government is technically a central power, though with the Islamic State, and the other rebel groups, it is not in control.
    • Congo: Doesn't have as advanced technology as other countries: A lot of Congo's weapons are also from the US or Russia, and again, militarily the country is not as powerful as others near it. Massive Natural Resources: Gold, diamonds, oil, cobalt, uranium, but in this modern era, with coltan being one of the most important^note Basically, you may have never heard of it, but it is used in making tantalum capacitors. In case you don't know what that is, odds are, you're reading this from something that uses it; basically any electronic device needs coltan to work, it's an essential part of making a computer and Congo is estimated to have 64% of the world's supply. Foreign intervention: It probably doesn't make as many headlines as it should, but foreign money is financing the illegal mining and smuggling of resources out of Congo. Lawless Wasteland/Central Power with dubious control: Again, while not true of the whole region, there are numerous groups that are fighting in the region, and Congo's government is not been completely in control, and has been criticized for human rights abuses. The US also has a travel warning for Congo. Congo is also rated one of the most dangerous places in the world for women, with disturbing numbers of sexual assaults.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Nov 6th 2022 at 5:02:26 AM

Does anyone have any feedback on the above entries?

I don't really, though it's because as I said, nobody is really clear on what "counts" as Fridge or not... so it's hard to have any cleanup work going when there's no actual metric.

Yeah. I think there are two things that can be cleaned up on Fridge pages even if what Fridge actually is still can't be decided:

• Anything that's just a scene summary, or actually happens in the show, or which the show either confirms in the work or through Word of God. If it's deliberate in the show, it cannot be accidental, so it cannot be Fridge (because the one thing that isn't debatable about the concept of Fridge is the idea that it's an accident).
• Anything that's just speculation about future events, which is supposed to be cleaned up wherever it's found.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Dec 3rd 2022 at 4:13:46 AM

What? No, actually, that is under debate. Nobody is clear on if Fridge can be put in there intentionally or has to be entirely subjective.

The description for Fridge Brilliance is like 5 sentences long and nowhere on it does it say that it has to be accidental. Meanwhile, Fridge Horror says " This can be either intentional or unintentional by the author", with "intentional" being potholed to Fridge Brilliance.

So what I'm saying is, citation needed.

Okay, so... citation to keep or citation to remove? Or is that up in the air as well?

Citation to prove that your thesis on "Fridge has to be accidental and that's not debatable" is true.

Oh, right. No, I didn't notice the Fridge Brilliance intentionality, which is why I thought it was unintentional. Since there's debate, I'll leave the pages alone until a decision is made.

Right... This is sort of why I'm not a fan of having a cleanup thread, because it's never been clear about what can and can't be removed from Fridge. Everyone has a different interpretation.

Yeah, it seems more like it needs something like a TRS to figure out what to do with it and then worry about clean-up later.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Dec 3rd 2022 at 4:24:48 AM