Does Wonder Woman deserve her reputation?

Her sales don't really justify her place in the Big 3. She ranks 44th in comics sales last month. Going by sales GL should be the third member, which would excite more people and make a lot more sense. Pulp, Sci-Fi, Cosmic team-up.

She's in the big three because she's a woman. While I like seeing female characters, including poor-quality ones for the sake of token is almost as bad. At this point Mera and the various Batgirls are much better picks for the role in team-ups. They certainly sell better.

There isn't a lot of wish fulfillment as a subject in WW. Having superpowers, being a millionaire and exploring space are all fairly easy sells. Being an amazon princess is not. Even female characters who tend to be written as less relate-able are written better. Mera is a Cool Wife, but she also gets a lot of badass moments which helps her popularity. The various Batgirls get a lot more human moments than WW. WW comes off as inhuman, but not in a badass way.

Isn't she in that "big 3" more by tradition than anything, though? I may be mistaken, but I believe Green Lantern popularity is relatively recent, right?

Sure, Wonder Woman may be not what she have been once, but she have been traditionally one of the figure heads of DC for years. Even though people don't rad her book, they are still expecting her to be prominent.

She's mainly considered to be part of the "Big Three" not due to sales, but rather due to the fact that she's one of only three DC heroes to have survived cancellation during the transition from the Golden Age to the Silver Age. I think Aquaman also survived that, but he didn't have his first solo title until the sixties.

I think a large part of Wonder Woman's appeal is that she's not a derivative of another male hero ala Batgirl and the like. I mean, yeah, those girls are awesome characters, but by and large Wonder Woman in universe doesn't owe her reputation to any man.

It would be a mistake to get rid of her, considering this. (There's also some issues with the fact that the industry is male dominated, and they seem to have continuing troubles writing women well at all.)

I wasn't talking about her in universe, and just because I think she's not as interesting as DC tries to paint her doesn't mean I think her character should disappear.

I think it's tied into iconography more than a lot of things. I remember growing up that there was a fundamental basis to the DC Trinity that I knew, and I could identify them with the most simplistic imagery. Flash has a similar, though more muted, aesthetic. It took some time to grasp some of the other characters, like Green Lantern, or to like others like Green Arrow. But I guess if that were the case, Marvel's equivalent would be Spider-Man, Captain America and Wolverine.

/Thread.

Aquaman and Green Arrow were the only other DC superheroes to have a continuing publishing history all the way from the Golden Age to the Silver Age, because they were pet characters of one of the editors who kept them as backup features for Superboy. GA had to wait even longer than Aquaman for his solo title.

One of the things that held Wonder Woman back was that during the Interregnum and early Silver Age, DC was divided into editorial "camps", each of which got certain characters or titles. If you wanted to use a character from another camp, you had to ask permission. Thus World's Finest was in the Superman "camp" and borrowing Batman and associated characters by standing permission (and you can really tell that the World's Finest writers didn't often read the Batman books when they used Batwoman and Bat-Mite long after they'd been dropped elsewhere.) They didn't even think of asking for WW to make a guest appearance.

The main five characters of the early Justice League were all in the same "camp", with Martian Manhunter being moved from Detective Comics to a different book so he'd be permanently available. Thus Superman and Batman made limited appearances early on and Wondy got showcased a bit more.

And the Teen Titans feature writer decided he needed a female member, remembered seeing Wonder Girl on a cover, and requested permission to use her...without having read the key stories that established that she was Diana from the past, coexisting with her present self due to Timey-Wimey Ball. And we know the Continuity Snarl that started from there.

If there had been a little less in-house friction, WW might have gotten the chance to be in World's Finest, looking at least mildly competent.

edited 18th Nov '12 3:08:09 PM by SKJAM

Nice when editors talk to each other, ain't it?

HERESY!

To my mind, there are interesting parallels between WW and the Hulk. In theory, both heroes have unusually strong central concepts ... but in practice, they both seem to require constant tinkering and reimagining. And many comic characters can yield a passable read even in the hands of midlevel talent or of outright jobbers, but not these two—they seem to require strong, individualistic writers/auteurs to work on nearly any level at all.

Maybe it's because the one is a mythological paragon and the other is a raging brute—neither is very relatable, and both have interior lives that are hard to depict or instinctively sympathize with. An unusual amount of their characterization has to come through the eyes of supporting characters ... and as a result, the stories are often only as interesting as those viewpoint characters themselves.

At least in the DC Animated Universe, I think that she fits well within the Justice League as one of several varieties of "alien" characters:

Superman has godlike powers and is The Paragon, but is sort of presented as a "normal guy"

Martian Manhunter has the same common touch as Superman, but differs in being sort of "weird".

Wonder Woman contrasts with Superman in that her outlook isn't that of an American person from "the present", and (depending on the work), she doesn't have his Technical Pacifist philosophy.

There's a definite Counterpart Comparison with Thor of the Marvel Universe- Thor can be presented as The Cape (parallel to Superman), but he also has this role as a warrior who is the ambassador to humanity from an alien civilization (parallel to Wonder Woman).

edited 27th Aug '13 8:05:29 AM by Hodor

I think that Wonder Woman's problem can be summed up with every actor's traditional question:

What's her motivation, coach?

For example, Batman and Superman's personal reasons for donning capes are the fulcrum of their mythos. Iron Man's guilt complex, Thor's efforts in earning the hammer, Cap's patriotism and Spider-Man's sense of responsibility all make them interesting people, spandex or no spandex, powers or no powers. It's their drive, their psyche that gives them solid characterization and enduring popularity.

To contrast, WW has no inherent personal motivation to ground her. No consistent choice behind her wearing the armor and braces. When Hal Jordan or Guy Gardner or John Steward are offered a ring of unbelievable power, their entire character revolves around why they would accept such responsibility, which is a great question with many answers - and many Lanterns to give them. Thus, I want to know why Diana of Themyscira would choose to walk among Men, and fight against Gods. Sadly, a lot of portrayals simply give her a man to fawn over, and let her revolve around him. Even JLU had her crush on Batman, which, while actually well done, wasn't exactly heroic origin story material.

Basically, give her a good reason to fight; and you'll give readers a good reason to watch her fight.

I'm not a real big follower of the Amazon (technically, I'm a decade behind schedule [so to speak] when it comes to following comics). But a couple of people in my RPG group once remarked that if an attempt was made at a Wonder Woman movie, it should be like a modern-day Clash Of The Titans (or to put it another way, a live-action version of the Scion RPG). Let Bruce & Clark deal with mobsters and aliens; Diana can deal with that army of zombie Spartans trying to invade her city.

(At this point, I feel I should remind you that these were comments made by my friends, not me. If what I've written annoys or upsets you, go yell at them).

It's not hard to give her a motivation though. Justice League did it just fine.

I maintain that the Wonder Woman movie also needs to be the Aquaman movie and it needs to be a war movie between Themyscira and Atlantis. I have an scene in my head of Aquaman rising out of the depths astride Cthulhu and using him as a living battering ram to fight the Amazons with.◊

Then a giant Minotaur would rise out of Tartarus and the Minotaur and Cthulhu would fight in the background while the final personal fight between Aquaman and Wonder Woman developed.

edited 27th Aug '13 11:24:14 AM by Canid117

I always felt she was the most boring of the main seven there.

A Wonder Woman movie should be easy. Just adapt her Post-Crisis origin.

I imagine a Wonder Woman movie opening with Hippolyta narrating the history of the Amazons with a montage, ending with the birth of Diana, followed by the title sequence. This would take maybe five minutes at most. Then we open on Diana, feeling kind of like an outcast because she was the only Amazon who was born on the island. But Hippolyta and Artemis are very supportive of her and assure her that she's destined for great things. Meanwhile, Steve Trevor is a pilot testing experimental aircraft, and he somehow ends up discovering something he shouldn't. Like he overhears a conversation between his CO and a mysterious shadowy figure, so his next test flight ends with an "accident". However, a mysterious force (Athena) saves him and he washes up on Paradise Island, where the Amazons aren't quite sure what to make of him. The Oracle claims that the Amazons must send a great warrior with him to stop a great evil. We get the tournament sequence and Diana winning, and then she's given some special divine armor, crafted from objects taken for a WW 2 pilot that washed up on Paradise Island. She is also presented with the Lasso of truth. Hermes is sent to deliver these objects to her.

So Diana and Steve return to Man's World with the god's help. Steve gets Diana a small apartment and we get the mandatory scenes of her trying to adjust to this strange world, maybe saving a few people. Meanwhile, Steve confronts his CO who reveals that he's taking orders from Ares, who plans to start WW3 as a glorious offering to himself. Diana becomes worried when Steve doesn't check up on her and goes in search of him. She discovers Ares' plan, and fights through an airforce base full of zombie soldiers to stop a bunch of nukes that Ares is going to fire. She fights Ares and manages to subdue him, but not before one of the missiles is fired. Hermes shows up and gives her the power of flight and with that she flies up to the nuke and stops it. Athena takes her back to Paradise Island congratulates her, and it's decided that the Amazons should be part of the world again and Diana volunteers to be the ambassador. Meanwhile, the news media has caught wind of Diana's existence and has named her the mysterious Wonder Woman.

There. Easy.

I've always thought it would be neat to portray Wonder Woman as the adventure seeking rebel who's bored with spending her entire life on one small island and wants to get out there and see the world. There's even some basis for that in her traditional origin, what with wearing a disguise to compete in the tournament, because her mother would never give her permission to leave.

It's the "I must go into Man's World to show them a better way, so they can live in peace like us Amazons" thing that makes it difficult to like her. Building a character's motivation around telling other people what to do rarely works out too well.

edited 27th Aug '13 11:53:29 AM by RavenWilder

Yeah, in the outline I just posted, I imagined a combination of that and of her feeling like an outcast due to her origin being unique among the Amazons. I don't imagine Amazons being outright hostile (aside from maybe one or two isolated incidents), but certainly there being a tension underneath their friendliness.

Maybe while she's in Man's World she ends up really enjoying her time there, and chooses to become ambassador simply because she likes it outside the island.

edited 27th Aug '13 11:56:00 AM by LizardBite

I don't know if that would work in a movie, actually. If you're already introducing a hidden island full of mystical, immortal warrior woman, saying, "Oh, and this particular mystical, immortal warrior woman was made out of clay and blessed with (insert powers here) from (insert gods here)" . . . well, it seems a little over-complicated. Couldn't she simply be the youngest Amazon, the only one who was born after the whole secret island/immortality deal happened?

A narration at the beginning like "Once there was a tribe of women known as the Amazons, but they faced much persecution for the city-states of Greece, who banded together to destroy them. The goddess Athena took pity on the Amazons, and led them to Paradise Island, where she blessed them with immortality. The Amazons lived many centuries in peace with their queen Hippolyta, but eventually Hippolyta began to long for a daughter. She prayed to the gods for some way to have one, and the gods commanded her to got the beach and craft a child from clay. Hippolyta did so, but it seemed that nothing was happening. She wept, and soon fell asleep on the beach. When she awoke, the clay child had become real, and Hippolyta took her as her own, and named her Diana." Bam. Done. It's all established right there.

Perhaps also hold off on the blessings from the gods until after she wins the tournament and receives the armor?

edited 27th Aug '13 12:06:11 PM by LizardBite

I agree with everything except that last part. Thor isn't really an "ambassador"—he was sent to humanity to learn humility, and stayed there to both defend and learn from them. Usually, he doesn't do anything to facilitate relations between Asgard and Midgard. Wonder Woman's chief role (when writers remember it) is to dissolve the corruptions and false standards which plague a patriarchal society.

The problem is that as feminism has gotten a blacker and blacker eye as far as the layperson is concerned, her original creator's belief that women are naturally superior to men has been lost, so her ambassadorship becomes less and less relevant.

With the Thor thing, I know Diana is literally an ambassador, but I made the comparison to Thor because the MCU sort of treats him as an Outside Context Hero who might not have the same concerns as humans.

I think I'm also making the comparison in terms of whether the character sees themselves and/or is presented as a superior being taking on the role of protector of humanity (versus someone who sees themselves as/is treated as an equal). Wonder Woman and Thor have a certain amount of that (as incidentally does the Man of Steel Superman).

RE the feminism issue, the converse is that Diana (and to a greater extent the other Amazons) can easily come across as Straw Feminists.

I'm a bit iffy on the "made from clay" origin- sort of vaguely sacrilegious I guess (although Superman gets a sci fi Moses/Jesus origin, so there's precedent there).

edited 27th Aug '13 12:24:20 PM by Hodor

I guess that could work, but I'm not really a fan of opening narration, personally. I also prefer the idea that Wonder Woman and the Amazons get their powers purely through Charles Atlas Superpower and Supernatural Martial Arts, rather than being specifically blessed by the gods.

edited 27th Aug '13 10:07:07 PM by RavenWilder

Made from mud or clay is a common religious theme, classical Greek religion included. I don't know if that makes it less sacrilegious but its nowhere near as specific (and thus as potentially offensive) as Super Moses.

Anyway, one of the most common complaints I read about her "clay" origin is "The Greek gods would never work together!" Exactly why would Demeter, Athena, Artemis, Aphrodite, Hestia and Hermes have trouble working together? Okay, over half of them are varying degrees of jerk ass but are any of them known for antagonizing each other or for being unhelpful toward humanity?

My issue is not with the concept but the result. Since when is Demeter especially strong? Is their anything in any myth to suggest she is as strong as Heracles? Hestia? Exactly when did Wonder Woman ever have fire powers? Isn't anything else she could give made redundant by Aphrodite? Hermes gave her the power to fly but how? He cannot fly without those sandals of his. As far as "being empowered by many" goes, Doctor Strange and Devi did it better.

I would just simplify it. She gets her power from Cottus The Furious. I don't see why he is a villain. He never did anything antagonistic in the myths except serve as jailer to the Titans, who imprisoned him first (well second but without cause either way. I'd be furious too).

A lot of Wonder Woman's problems are trying to push a worldview on preexisting stories where it really should not apply. The Amazons were supposedly an idealistic woman society but in actuality they were known for killing or otherwise abandoning their male babies and using war slaves to reproduce. Making Ares the villain is also really strange when you consider Ares is the father of the Amazon nation! Hard as it seems to mess up a story where Ares is the villain, DC comics managed to do it. Being a good father was probably his single redeeming trait.

That is why Cottus would not be a villain in my telling of the Wonder Woman story. He merely would be a grieving father who was kicking the asses of Thanatos and Ares until little Hyppolita came crying "Please don't hurt my daddy!" See, Cottus's daughter had been murdered in one of Ares's wars but he agreed to let Ares go after Hyppolita promised to preserve the baby's soul and ensure she grew up big, strong and beloved.

edited 15th Oct '13 8:27:57 AM by Cider