Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in this thread.
Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.
Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.
Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:52:14 PM
From what I heard, a lot.
"Don't do this, or you can't be one of us"
"Ok, bye"
"No, wait..."
Red Spade, Black Heart
Had an interesting thought the other day.
Well, maybe it's not so interesting. Maybe it's actually pretty stupid. But I'll share it here, as some food for thought.
So, most modern interpretations of the story of Sodom claim that God destroyed the city not because it was full of gays, but because the people were inhospitable. So we can redefine a "sodomite" as someone who is inhospitable. By that logic, we can apply the label to people on the American right—the people who love to use the word "sodomite" as a slur against gay people—for their frothy-mouthed hatred of immigrants. I bet they'd hate that.
Is that a Wocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?
Servant of the Omnissiah
Hardly a modern interpretation. Violation of Sacred Hospitality was the reason throughout most interpretations. The "Because they were Gay" argument cropped up sometime in the 18th Century (surprise, surprise).
Violation of Sacred Hospitality - even today - is considered to be one of the absolute worst offences you can commit. However, the American Religious Right (and the xenophobic streak running through them) has made that violation and other forms of bigotry their calling card, so calling them out on it is pretty much justified.
I hold the secrets of the machine.
I'll note that wen it comes to Homosexuality, Sodom doesn't get brought up much in serious discussion anymore due to confounding factors. (or at least where I've had the conversations)
According to wikipedia, both interpretations have been widely debated. Well, for centuries, only one of them was seen as correct and used to bring punishment for how people were born and to name some horrific laws, so that's all that matters to me.
Life is unfair...
...
She was part of a vanguard of progressive-Christian women who fought to change the way Christianity is taught and perceived in the United States. Especially for people who have felt hurt by or unwelcome in the Church, Evans provided a safe shore, full of encouragement and defiant acceptance. Many of those who befriended her and followed her work have, in turn, become well-known figures in the progressive-Christian world, such as Reverend Jes Kast and Austin Channing Brown. Evans helped forge new space for diverse voices who are denied authority or power in the Christian world—a legacy that will last far beyond her death.
...
The most striking thing about Evans’s writing, though, was her vulnerability. In adulthood, she decided to leave the evangelical church where she had grown up, in part because of its stance on LGBTQ rights. As she and her husband moved into a new phase of their Christian life, she wrote in her third book, Searching for Sunday, that she wanted a space where it was okay to be broken. “A lot of liberal, progressive people are afraid of the word sin,” she told me in a 2015 interview. But this is the core of Christianity, she said, the “bizarre truth of Christian identity.” Her conviction was clear in the way she held herself in conversation: acknowledging human fragility and failings, including her own. Speaking with care and humility. Summoning grace for the abandoned.
...
Evans spent significant energy arguing for LGBTQ inclusion in the church. She also wrote about the importance of women’s voices in traditionally patriarchal Christian subcultures, and reached out to Christians of color who were developing their own writing and platforms. Following her death, many people commented on her efforts to reach people at the margins of traditional Christianity: “Her impact on our community was enormous and deserves to be recorded,” wrote Matthew Vines, an influential Christian writer who focuses on LGBTQ issues in the Church. He encouraged people to “share your stories about this amazing woman of God.”
Edited by Soban on May 8th 2019 at 10:10:08 AM
Trump had the highest support ratio of evangelicals ever but it seems that he's gone down an astonishing number of points (but still has a majority). A major part of this appears to be his anti-gay agenda not going over well with young evangelicals who don't hold it to be an issue and/or outright have no issues with it.
They also dance around the fact that older evangelicals are voting because of racism but it's there.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I've heard a pretty good joke about how Trump is actually the most.openly Atheist President. I mean, Pence is a religious fanatic but Trump simply don't even bother to look religious.
Rest in Peace.
The question I'd love to ask those Evangelical types of whether or not they actually believe Trump is going to heaven.
Brenner's Wolves Fight Again
Trump is his own religion.
Where there's life, there's hope.
I have heard that many of them like to compare Trump to King David: A sinner and yet chosen to do gods' work.
King David repented of his crimes.
But it's all post-facto justification anyway. It also exposes the monstrous hypocrisy at work. I am always pleased when someone notices the immense amount required to rationalize voting for him, though.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
The evangelicals that I know think he's a bad guy, but at the moment he's on their side. Which is better then a bad guy who isn't on their side. I don't personally know anyone who thinks that he's anything more then a lip service Christian. In terms of the reasons that they voted for him for (court appointments) they are not disappointed.
In a way, it's hard to argue with their logic. Wouldn't you vote for an obviously bad Democrat over a slightly less bad Republican?
Being a former The Fundamentalist but religious, I find it Insane Troll Logic to justify voting for an evil man who is a political ally than a sincere good person I disagree with.
But there have been articles that the evangelical support of Trump is not necessarily religiously ideological so much as overlap. Why preachers support him may not be why the congregations do.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
That's the thing, they didn't see Clinton as being a sincere good person that they disagreed with. When the choice is a evil person who is a political ally vs an evil person who isn't a political ally, people will choose their political allies every time.
I'm not saying that I agree with that perspective. I voted for someone I didn't think was evil even though I disagreed with them on many points.
Edited by Soban on May 14th 2019 at 3:08:31 PM
Don't have a non paywall link at hand but this seemed potentially big enough to warrant posting anyway:
United Methodist Church is expected to split over gay marriage, fracturing the nation’s third-largest denomination – Church leaders said Friday they had agreed to spin off a “traditionalist Methodist" denomination, while allowing the remaining portion of the United Methodist Church to permit same-sex marriage and LGBT clergy for the first time in its history.
Edit: Here we go
https://apnews.com/23750a56d8dd88e68ea343ff4a8cead6
Edited by sgamer82 on Jan 3rd 2020 at 2:52:56 AM
Here's an open link.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/03/us/united-methodist-church-split-proposal/index.html
Blasted 2 second ![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
!
Edited by Rationalinsanity on Jan 3rd 2020 at 5:53:35 AM
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Professional Forum Ninja
Here's a more direct link:
"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
Guess they're not so United now, eh?
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
I mean... If I'm reading this correctly the United Methodist Church is, apparently, united in accepting LGBT+ people and those who don't can (literally) very kindly fuck off on out of there.
Angry gets shit done.
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
The United Methodist Church is a global organization, the American based congregation is very much in favor of LGBT support and clergy and it's the congregations in Russia and Africa who are opposed.
The article using the words "remaining portion" is misleading because that remaining portion is the majority.
Oh really when?
Sounds similar to the Anglican situation, what with the continental divisions.
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
This is a fascinating article about how LGBT rights may kill white nationalist evangelism in America.
It's a couple of years old but it's pretty accurate in my view.
https://www.newsweek.com/2018/12/21/evangelicals-republicans-trump-millenials-1255745.html
A trans Christian minister came out in a sermon. Now, she’s bracing for what comes next.
“Most religious groups have moved to support marriage equality, to support nondiscrimination laws that support transgender people,” says Robert Jones, the founder of the Public Religion Research Institute, which conducted a survey on Christian denominations’ views on trans identities in 2019. “White evangelical Protestants are the only group where there’s a majority opposition to marriage equality today. Every other religious group is either divided or supportive.”
This shift is the natural culmination of decades of church history. The explicitly queer-affirming Metropolitan Community Church denomination began in Los Angeles in 1968 and quickly spread worldwide. The Episcopalian Church named a gay man as a bishop in 2003, which also led some individual churches to split off from the denomination. And both the Lutheran and Methodist churches have faced denominational schisms over accepting LGBTQ people in the past few years.
“So often, progress comes two steps forward and one step back. But even if you look at the most conservative evangelical churches, there are cracks starting to form,” says Jeff Rock, pastor of Toronto’s MCC, which June attends on Sunday evenings.
“I think the Church with a capital-C needs to be public and vocal and unwavering about its support for queer and trans people, labeling our experiences as holy, proclaiming us beloved children of God,” says Rev. Erica Saunders of Peace Community Church in Oberlin, Ohio. She’s only the second trans woman ordained into the Alliance of Baptists denomination and the first to be ordained when already out. “That’s going to include welcoming us into all levels of power, administration, polity — not just saying, ‘You can come in,’ but allowing us to be part of life in all its abundance.”
The question of what happens after churches embrace queer folks, however, remains very much open. The Christian Church — especially the Evangelical Church — has been one of the foremost opponents of LGBTQ rights, and evangelicals continue to push regressive trans policies. Is there any way to have healing in the church, even with pastors like June, pastors who know how badly the church has hurt people like her?
Tragic update: The members of the church voted to fire Joplin :(
Edited by Pachylad on Jul 21st 2020 at 10:48:17 PM
I confess, my immediate thought was "how much membership have the LDS been losing because they're excluding LGBTQ+?"
Edited by sgamer82 on Apr 5th 2019 at 5:32:14 AM