Renaming (alt titles 4/14): Princess Curls

How about this:

We make Princess Curls Ojou Curls, and make it Japanese media specific, with the requirement that the curls must frame the face (although I'd like a bigger sample size of opinions on whether this is actually the case, or if ringlets in general count) and is The Ojou.

We make Regal Ringlets the supertrope, and put non-Japanese media in there as well as Japanese characters that don't fit Ojou Curls.

edited 24th Feb '12 10:36:22 AM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

Princess Curls used to be Ojou Curls, IIRC, so that would be fine with me.

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.

Ccoa's YKTTW is identical to this, but better defined.

I'm not sure how Curls But In Japan could be a seperate trope. They both imply royalty and maybe femininity.

edited 24th Feb '12 10:56:14 AM by lu127

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer

If you think Shirly Temple belongs on ccoas's YKTTW, then it's different from Princess Curls. Shirly Temple definitely had curls, and was cute and feminine, but she was not from a high-status family, was not aristocratic or snobbish, or even a Royal Brat / Alpha Bitch.

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.

Yeah, I suggest we make Regal Ringlets and Girlish Curls.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

Yeah, that makes sense. Girlish curls and royal curls are two different tropes.

However, I don't see a point about a cultural distinction, since in both cultures, it's meant to signify royalty. So, I suggest we make this less Japan-specific and make a YKTTW about Girly Curls.

edited 24th Feb '12 11:30:16 AM by lu127

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer

First off The Archer is in no way this, she has no qualites of The Ojou at all.

And really these are not always OMG call Gurren Langan and use the Drill Hair for weapons type thing they vary in all shapes and sizes

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Series name is Scrapped Princess.... go fig here

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Saki from To Love Ru can not be a more stereotypical type 1 The Ojou in existence.

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Haruka◊ from Amagami SS plays Type 2 straight as an arrow till you get to know her.

Minmei◊ from Macross

Chizuru◊[1]◊ from Negima the curls were the only on screen hint that she was an Ojou till it was plot required.

I can go on and on these are a staple feature on The Ojou anything else but curly there does not mean squat. (even if their entire hair is done like that if there isnt a lock to the sides of their face its not this trope.)

Are there subersions to this but still use the hair yes Sally Po in Gundam Wing which ends up playing a very different role than any of the actual The Ojou and Katawa Shoujo's Misha which was developed in english so they didn't know this.

This really needs to stay the way it is written and just make a supertrope for Drill Hair.

edited 24th Feb '12 11:53:16 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

I want to apologize for not addressing the "regal" part in my OP, since I thought the association was implicit.

What I should have said was that a lot of characters with drill hair on other places of the head have the same connotation of prestige (for instance, Luna Platz in my OP is an Ojou with a Big Fancy House, and her drill hair is a blatant indication of that) so the ringlets-on-the-side description could be broadened. I disagree with since there are plenty of other places for drill hair on an ojou - in fact, Saki's curls are not framing her face, and you can clearly see that they're behind her ears while they rest on her shoulders. If you want I can make a list of characters who exemplify this.

I think the trope should be broadened to "any kind of drill/corkscrew hair -as an indicator of prestige and high social standing-." There could always be a subtrope for the drill payot.

edited 24th Feb '12 11:55:55 AM by Waafu

In the time period Shirley Temple was acting, actresses were a kind of royalty.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

My point exactly. Royalty in one culture, royalty in another. I see no reason to split based on that.

Supertropes concerning Drill Hair and Girly Curls should work.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer

But there were plenty of actresses that didn't have curls, and plenty of girls with curls who weren't actresses. Her curls did not signify that she was an actress, it was just the overlap of Girlish Curls and "is an actress".

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.

I'm sure there are plenty of ojous that don't have Princess Curls, too. Just because a visual shorthand trope can imply something it doesn't follow that everyone with that something will also have that visual shorthand.

That's a form of reverse causation.

edited 24th Feb '12 12:14:08 PM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

Not all, yes, but lots. There's a stereotype package, especially for the Ritch Bitch / Royal Brat version (the curls, the laugh).

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.

And a lot of actresses in the 1910-20 range had ringlets. Off the top of my head: Olive Thomas, Mary Pickford.

There were really only three major actress hairstyles: ringlets, Glamourous Twenties Wave (which should be a trope), and Twenties Bob (which is being split off Bob Haircut). Some people combined them, but those were the major fashions in Hollywood of the day.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

Yes, because The Ingenue was a popular type at the time and ringlets were a popular "girlish innocence" hairstyle. It still has nothing to do with Princess Curls.

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.

Threw up a stub YKTTW for GirlishCurls. Will try to flesh it out later.

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.

I think that Oujo Curls, the current page definition, and the trope that Raso's talking about are a very specific visual image, and really just an anime trope. It just requires the two curls and the rest of the hair can be however they want it to be.

I think that ringlets all over as a high maintenance, high class style is a more general media trope and while it can overlap with Oujo Curls, it generally doesn't. I think that there's a big difference between just the two curls and curls all over as far as visual styles go. While they have similar meanings, they're not really the same execution.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

^^I strongly disagree. As I said, actresses were a type of royalty at the time, and the hairstyle has been associated with aristocracy since ancient Rome. There's no reason it can't be both tropes, they're not mutually exclusive.

However, arguing one example is not going to help us fix Princess Curls, so let's shelve this debate until we decide what's going where.

I do think the curls in front, rest of hair straight is distinctive to anime. Never seen that anywhere else. It may be derived from the Hime Cut, with it's shorter tails in front.

edited 24th Feb '12 1:01:23 PM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

Yeah the rest of the hair can be literally anything, Some examples make the entire hair style into tubes [1]◊[2]◊, some go Odango Hair, Bob Cut, Hime Cut, Pigtails hair decs and long hair◊ etc.

It is like Go Nagai Sideburns except for a sign that they are The Ojou (Full on, wannabe or invoking aspects of the trope.) not Hot-Blooded.

edited 24th Feb '12 4:57:14 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

I just realised we already have Quirky Curls. Where does that fall in the culy-ness family of tropes?

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer

I need a clarification on what people were thinking for Girly Curls. The YKTTW is currently limited only to ringlets, but I think there's going to be so much overlap between that and Regal Ringlets that it won't make sense to have them separate. There aren't going to be too many examples that are only one or the other.

I thought that Girly Curls was more about curls in general from the name, but not being psychic, I'm not sure.

Anyway, do we need a crowner to determine if Ojou Curls is kept as a subtrope of Regal Ringlets, or if we need to redefine and broaden Princess Curls?

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

Quirky Curls are natural, messy, wild, uncontrolled curls that represent the same sort of non-conformist energy in the character. It's the idea that even the character's hair can not be controlled any more than the character can be.

There's a big difference between carefully styled and maintained curls◊ and messy wild curls◊ even in real hair.

Oujo Curls I don't think falls really under Regal Ringlets since I don't see any other place where two small curls would fall under it. I think it's just a weird Japanese thing and it should probably stay there. The only other people that style is worn by is Hasidic Jews. I do think a more Japanese name would help keep the non-Japanese misuse out. While it's opaquer, it also gets less misuse if the trope is actually Japanese media (or works that want to be Japanese media) only.

edited 25th Feb '12 7:46:03 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Since discussion is stalled out, please accept this finely crafted crowner.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

This could use a few more votes.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Crowner snapshot: Make a supertrope is now +5, while broaded the trope is -6.

Options are wide apart, but leader has very few votes on it.

edited 20th Mar '12 7:33:22 AM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.