The Constructive Criticism Thread

Thank you for your critique. I've noted them on my phone.

1. Yes, it is a fictional setting. In the first drafts, i did have it take place in old england, but i switched it to a fictional one due to my lack of knowledge about anything outside of my home country of canada and the US. None of the places i named in the story are real, they are completely fictional. And admitidely, i'm still making up the setting as i go along. I would like to know how to make it clear that the setting is fictional.

2. Since it is an episodic series, i deliberately didn't reveal anything about father mccullough's past, as it will be explored more in future episodes.

3. I do not really understand what you mean by Evelyn's internal monologue, as i don't see anything in the story ressembling that. Also, i thought i wrote about Evelyn being poor during the trek in the marketplace, in the paragraphs before she steals the garlic bread. Anyways, do feel free to teach me what to do and write in order to convey a character better.

4. Being too casual is a frequent criticism i get. Can i know what an acceptable way of writing looks like?

5.ah yes, i was actually refering to an hay cart, sorry. Y'see, in french, we call a cart "un chariot" or "une barquette" for a small cart that you push by hand.

Again, thank you for your critique. I'll try and fix it. Though i wonder how long and what will it take for this series to be good enough to be published....

Edited by Kinni454 on Aug 12th 2022 at 11:38:08 AM

I'm glad you found it helpful.

1. Since you indicate that this is a fantasy setting, I would include some fantastic elements into the initial setting description, somewhere in the first few paragraphs. Perhaps a mythological beast, or else have the Cathedral dedicated to "The Gods." It doesn't have to be much, just enough to clue in the reader.

2. Ok, got it. The story would still be stronger if something was done with Father M's actions and words, if they had some effect on the plot later on.

3. "Internal monologue" is the wrong term. I am referring to passages that describe her thoughts and perceptions, such as "She couldn't wait to go back home...where it smelled like a mixture of Pinewood, Cauliflowers and horse poop...at least, in her mind, it was better than the city." It's the narrator describing what she is thinking, but because the entire story is told from her point of view, it would be helpful to describe her feelings in ways that she, herself, would. "Where it was a mixed up bunch of smells, pine and califlower and horse poop, all together. It was better than the city." You don't have to say "to her mind", because the reader can assume it's her mind that is being described.

In fact, because the story is being told from her point of view, you should only describe things that she would notice, and describe them in a way that will lead the reader to see them the same way she would. Since she is poor, and if you wish to imply that she has been in trouble with the law before, then when the narrator describes the police patrol you should emphasize the negative:

"Fortunately, before anyone did anything, a police patrol came into the picture. The four of them were in a jolly good mood, singing a boppy melody while carrying a bottle of champagne, keeping the shady denizens of the alleys in check." This in unlikely to be how she thinks about them, if she has had to evade them in the past: It would be more like "Unfortunately, the coppers appeared. The four of them looked drunk, singing out of key and waving a bottle of something around, casting arrogant eyes at the denizens of the alleys."

Even though it's the narrator speaking, the description is still told from her point of view. This is called "Third Person Limited" point of view, and is the most common approach to storytelling these days.

4. Here's an example: "To tourists and outsiders, the town seems like a cozy place to be, albeit one with rather colorful denizens. Alas, the city has its fair share of marginals and rejects, and they all live up here, in the alleys. Weed enthusiasts, shady dealers, thieves and the homeless are the inhabitants of these dark corners, mainly because the villages around Gravenbirch were already filled to the brim with them."

This reads like some sort of parody of a tourist brochure. First off, does Evelyn have any idea at all what a tourist or an outsider to her town would think? Keep everything to Evelyn's perspective. Secondly, it should be re-worded to be more neutral and objective: "To an outsider, Gravenbirch might have seemed to be a rather cozy place, albeit with somewhat colorful residents. But to someone who lived there, the city was occupied by shadier, more marginal characters, mostly living in the alleys. Shady dealers, thieves and homeless were common inhabitants of the darker corners, the same dark corners she had lived near all her life."

Or something like that (I left out "Weed dealers" because I don't know what those are). If you don't intend that Evelyn be that familiar with the alleys and their residents, then just adapt the description: "To an outsider, like Evelyn, Gravenbirch might have seemed to be a rather cozy place, albeit with somewhat colorful denizens. But she was aware that the city was also occupied by shadier, more marginal characters, mostly living in the..."

I'm sure you get it.

5. So English isn't your native language? You are very good at it, regardless.

Additionally, Kinni 454, it's important to capitalize properly. I noticed that certain proper nouns and the beginnings of sentences are not capitalized properly while common nouns are capitalized wrongly. I'll show you examples with the errors bolded from the text.

Thank you guys for the tips. I'll keep them in my notes. I'm actually glad that i'm actually feeling like i am improving and that this story is getting close to the final product. The part that sucks is that i'll have to do it all again for the other episodes :/

But yeah, me feeling that things are finally trending up far outweighs the bad. I will get it done.

Since Kinni 454's turn is over, it's time for the next entry on the watchlist, which is Murmurs to be reviewed for constructive criticism. Can somebody review the script for now?

Give me another couple of days.

So, Murmurs.

I note that this is the second time I've reviewed this particular work. You seem to have taken many of the suggestions that I made the last time, and that you still have other areas you need to work on.

The last time, I mentioned this:

"there is no intro to your story. You start right away, after a too brief opening scene, with the protagonist beginning her day. A more traditional opening scene would depict something scary and fantastic right off the bat—the most obvious thing would be the girl getting kidnapped in the park, and simply disappearing, rather than being captured and taken somewhere in the real world, rather than the flogging room, as you have it now."

You have now added just such a scene, which helps the audience understand what kind of story they are viewing. Much better.

After this new scene, however, you still have some problems. The following scenes (bedroom, breakfast, car, classroom) still seem too short, and events occur with no clear relationship to the plot. Previously, I said the following:

"A scene should be long enough that it accomplishes the goal of the scene. The goal of a scene is generally either to move the plot forward, establish the setting, illustrate the theme, or provide time for character development."

Let's take the classroom scene. I am curious to know what your goals for this scene are. What are you trying to establish? For instance, the teacher and a student have a conversation about the protagonist before she arrives there. Yet I do not see how it moves the plot forward, helps establish the setting, illustrate the theme, or contribute to character development. Why did you include that dialogue in this story? I understand why the character is in the story, and this would be an excellent opportunity for some ambiguous foreshadowing (esp considering what happens between the teacher and the student later on), but I don't see anything like that here. Instead of handing out grades, he should be teaching poetry or something. Pick a poem with somewhat gruesome undertones.

Here's a test for you. Go through your entire script and start eliminating scenes and parts of scenes. If the elimination does not affect the outcome or the tone of the story in any way, or a major character's development, leave it out. For example, you could delete the flogging room scene after the kidnapping in the park without affecting the story in any way. Leave it out.

Even the scenes that do belong are still too short. When Santhy wakes up, she sits up in bed and looks in a mirror. This is to establish that she is having nightmares. But we need to see more. The scene in which you introduce a major character should include clues to that character's personality. Here, how a person decorates their room is a good way to indicate some things about what kind of person they are. So describe the room. When a character looks into a mirror, what they say and do is a good opportunity to reveal something about how they feel about themselves. Does she look disappointed, try to fix her hair, accuse herself of something, ask a question? Any of those things could help establish Santhy's character.

But this would require that you have a clear idea what Santhy's unique qualitiesas a character are. As I read the script, she mostly seems to react to what other character's say and do to her, she doesn't seem to initiate much action at all, even at the end (Santhy isn't the one who defeats the villain, for instance). I asked the last time if you had a character sheet written out for her (the kind that you can find online). If you do not I strongly recommend that you do so.

Also, what audience is this story intended for? Normally, stories with teenaged protagonists are directed toward teenaged audiences. But if that is the case, then I advise you to consider that any teenaged girls who read your story will want a strong, interesting main character to identify with. Being rescued by the police comes across as a little passive, and a bit "old school". Heroines outsmart and kill their own antagonists now.

Your dialogue still seems formal and stilted. Teenagers do not talk to each other like that. For example, in this scene, Santhy is talking to Melissa:

"MELISSA KWOK looks at a photograph of her family longingly. She slightly fiddles with it, adjusting the position of the picture.

Santhy: What are you looking at?

Melissa hurriedly places the photograph inside her social studies textbook. She looks back at Santhy.

Melissa: Don't startle me like that. I'm trying to remain composed here."

So, the way to mimic the way teenagers talk to each other is to read how realistic teens are portrayed talking to each other. You have some flexibility in regards to just how realistic you want to get. I happen to have a teenaged daughter, and so I can tell you that the real conversation would have gone something like:

"Whatcha' lookin' at?" Santhy eyes Melissa's picture with an eager smile.

"Shut up! You scared me!" Melissa quickly hides the picture in her text book.

"Come on! You really not gunna' show me?" Santhy looks at Melissa incredulously.

But fiction does have to appeal to a wider audience, so a certain amount of formality is acceptable:

"What are you looking at?"

"Yikes! Don't scare me like that. Everyone is looking!"

While not 100% true to life, that version of the dialogue at least looks casual enough that most readers would accept it. What I want you to do is look at every piece of dialogue in your script and "De-formalize" it. Can you substitute more casual words and phrases for the more formal wording you have there? Again, if you need help with this, read some young adult fiction. The later books in the Harry Potter series would be an excellent place to start.

Some other, more minor things. I don't know how familiar you are with the American school system, but my impression is that very few schools hand out paper report cards anymore. Stuff like that is handled online now. Same with paper newspapers. No one seems to have a smartphone. A groundkeeper who made salacious comments about a student's body could get fired just for that. Forgive me if I missed it, but the story reads like it was set in the past, maybe the 1990's. If that isn't intentional, you may want to update some of the details.

Well, I hope that's helpful. I think your script shows considerable promise. The plot is tight, and the aesthetic details fit the psycho-drama genre very well.

That's it for now. Who is next?

I haven't gotten very far into Murmurs yet, but I agree; the plot seems really interesting but the dialogue is really taking me out of the experience.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 18th 2022 at 11:44:27 AM

Are you guys done with Murmurs, or are you still reviewing it? Cause i'd like to show you my draft for episode 3 of Evelyn of the Valley.

Edited by Kinni454 on Aug 27th 2022 at 10:16:31 AM

We can move on now, but have you put the work on the Wait List?

Yeah, i'll put it on, hold on.

EDIT: there ya go, it's on the wait list! Details about the episode over there at the feedback request list.

Edited by Kinni454 on Aug 27th 2022 at 2:41:53 AM

I'll do a short constructive criticism post for the story:

It seems you've taken my advice on capitalization and advice from De Marquis about general prose of the story. The text is readable, for now. However, the text still needs improvements as I can see several grammatical errors and improper capitalization, usually the proper nouns. Other than that, I'll leave it to ~De Marquis to assist in the rest of the text.

It looks like you added major new sections to the story! I am rather busy at the moment, but don't worry, I will get to this.

what do you mean by that? Like, it is episode 3, not the previous episodes.

Edited by Kinni454 on Sep 3rd 2022 at 6:36:02 AM

OK, so some advice on writing style. (By the way, the fact that I'm focusing on your style is good thing, as it indicates that there is nothing wrong with your plot, setting or characterization). A word of warning, writing style is hard!

"A scream echoed throughout the darkness enveloping Evelyn's house, abruptly killing her sleep and startling her enough to wake up in a hurry. Filled with fear, her eyes scanned around her poorly-lit bedroom, trying to find the source of the scream."

This is your first paragraph, and it allows me to discuss the importance of a consistent point of view. As you write, it helps (esp during tense scenes like this one) to imagine what the reader is envisioning while they read. In this case, the very first sentence starts them outside the house, looking at the darkness enveloping it. Halfway through this sentence, however, you change perspective and suddenly we are looking at Evelyn in her bed. This is somewhat jarring, and isn't as smooth as you could get it with a few changes.

One reason why discussing style is hard is because there is no one right writing style. In fact, to become a successful author, you are expected to come up with something that is unique to you, while still adhering to standard writing criteria. This means that it is easy for me to point at a problem, but the solution has to come from you. You have many options.

One thing you could do is start the sentence inside the house. That could be as easy as changing the word "enveloping" (which implies one thing surrounding another) with something like "permeating" (which implies one thing inside another). That was when Evelyn is shown being startled it is a smoother transition.

Another option is to provide a more gradual transition. Darkness envelops the house, then a scream emanates from it. The next sentence could be something like "Inside the house, Evelyn's sleep was abruptly killed..."

Yet a third option is to take your time and describe the scene before the scream in more detail. This involves the most rewriting, but it would allow you to establish a peaceful scene to open with, and then present a more dramatic contrast as the scream introduces tension. The darkness is soft and enveloping, crickets are chirping, the stars shine gently overhead, etc., etc., and then a scream rips out, and Evelyn is startled out of her sleep (in this case you can change perspective in the middle of a paragraph because that reproduces the experience of being startled awake).

The point is that you have to figure out what is right for you.

"A few seconds of relaxation allowed the young maiden to realise that the scream came from her little brother Trevor's room."

What is your goal in this scene? If you are trying to build dramatic tension, then allowing Evelyn (the reader) to relax at all is a mistake. Keep building the tension until it is released upon talking with Trevor.

"Grabbing the lantern on her nightstand, Evelyn ran towards the bedroom in question, her steps loudly echoing across the house. After stopping right at the door frame, she carefully lifted her lamp, its warm light spreading across the room."

So now that you have introduced a character in this scene, and are describing what happens from her point of view, the readers are going to be trying to see what she sees, and experience what she experiences vicariously via their own imaginations. You want to make this as easy as possible, with no distractions from Evelyn's immediate experience. I very much doubt that anyone rushing through a house toward a scream in the dark stops to think to themselves "Run towards the bedroom in question." That's much too formal, and takes the reader out of Evelyn's head. Even though technically this sentence is being narrated, and not actually spoken by Evelyn, even in her head, you will still want to keep the prose to something she might actually think, so as not to distract the reader away from Evelyn's experience and toward something being narrated.

Something else I need to mention is verb tense. In your first sentence, you went from past tense, "echoed", to present tense, "Killing" and "Startling", and I let you get away with it because you went right back to past tense, "Filled" and "scanned". A brief break in tense can act like a "special effect" that startles the reader into paying closer attention. You can't keep doing it, though, like a jump scare it gets less effective with every additional use.

"Grabbing the lantern" is present tense again. To keep the tense consistent, make it past tense, something along the lines of "As she grabbed the lantern..." or "Having grabbed the lantern..." Apply the same to the rest of the sentence: "echoing", "stopping", and "spreading" are all present tense.

Again, choices. If you want to preserve the immediacy of this sentence, then you can simply change the first sentence to entirely past tense. That's up to you.

"There, on the messily-sheeted bed, stood Trevor, his body all cocooned up in a fetal position, his hands grabbing his bed sheets tightly. Hidden underneath the white sheets, his body shook like an earthquake."

Don't use passive voice! It is almost never the correct choice. Standard word order in English is subject first, action second, object third. Use this whenever possible. It keeps the (English) reader in the scene, and does not remind them that they are actually reading a story. "Trevor stood on the messily-sheeted bed, his body cocooned in a fetal position, his hands having grabbed the bed sheets tightly" is correct style.

Small point of consistency—if he is standing on the bed, how is his body in a fetal position? I don't think you mean "stood", I think you meant something else, like "laying."

"Are you okay, Trevor?" She asked. "What happened?"

Good.

"Trembling hands slowly pulled down the sheets, revealing the puffy red hair of Evelyn's little brother along with his expressive brown eyes. All traces of fear slowly vanished from Trevor upon gazing at the visage of her big sister, a sigh of relief coming out of his mouth."

This is pretty good, except I think "visage" is the wrong word. Not only is it too formal, but how does Evelyn see her own visage? I know it's her brother looking up at her, and technically he can see it, but the reader is seeing this scene from Evelyn's point of view, so telling us that her brother sees her facial expression changes the perspective. Again, jarring. What does Evelyn see? Just her brother looking up at her, that's all. Describe that, from her point of view.

"I..I had a nightmare..." Trevor stuttered, the trauma being visible on his freckled visage.

Visage again. But more importantly, "being visible" is the present tense. This is easy to fix by simply dropping the word 'being.' "...the trauma visible on his freckled face."

"Evelyn soon walked towards her dear sibling's bed, deposing the lantern on his nighstand, followed by herself onto the edge of the mattress."

"Soon" is unnecessary, and informing us that her brother was dear to her is telling, not showing. You can just delete the "dear", because all her actions up to this point illustrate how much she cares about her brother, we don't need to be told.

"Deposing" is too formal, make it "setting" or something else people commonly say. Same for "followed by herself". She sits on the mattress, you can just say that.

Keep it present, keep it active, keep it simple.

"Upon feeling the comfortable warmth of Evelyn, Trevor's body released all of its tension, his muscles decontracting as he returned to a more composed physical state. Depressive thoughts, however, still raced in his mind, prompting the young boy to look at his bedsheets in sadness."

Ok, now you try. Find the overly formal, awkward phrasing and words. Find the use of present tense, and where you provide too much description. That's all in the first sentence. Find where you change perspective away from Evelyn's immediate experience again, that's in the second sentence. See if you can rewrite it more effectively.

''"Evelyn..."

"Yes, Trevor?"

"...Do you think we'll make it? Do you think we have a future?"

"Now, why are you thinking about that?" Asked a curious Evelyn. ''

Out of all that, there is only one mistake: telling not showing. It's at the very end.

"While you were doing your delivery gig the other day, i...I saw someone..." he uttered. "...He was coughing like crazy. He was in a sorry state. He coughed and coughed, making an awful sound every time, until he...he collapsed...T-There was blood coming out of his…his mouth..."

This I find very effective, that's good writing.

And that's all page one. Obviously, I can't go over the entire chapter this way, I would write a book on your one chapter. But I think I've given you enough advice that you can take it from here. Apply my feedback to the rest of the chapter.

Good luck and I look forward to the next installment.

Thank you. I've noted them in my phone's notebook. English is hard, even for a bilingual guy like me. Plus, i wish i instinctively knew what phrases to write in order to convey the film that's playing in my head with words. Like that, i wouldn't have to do everything over and over and over again and be frustrated and avoid that dreadful feeling of not knowing what to do or what would be the right word to use.

But i'll stop with the whining. It helps nobody. So yeah, thank you. I do hope i'll pull this episode off, especially the ending, cause it is the start of a series-wide arc and also an unexpected turn to the serious that i really, really hope i pull it off and hit people in the feels. Like, silent hill-levels of making a lasting impression, man.

...yeah, that's a tad bit too ambitious for my skill level...not to mention only 4 people reads my series...

i was so sure i did something great...back to the drawing boards...again. if only i was good...

Edited by Kinni454 on Sep 5th 2022 at 6:03:39 AM

Ah well, don't let it worry you, it's just a matter of practice. Your English is actually pretty good, you just need to polish it a bit. Your plot, setting and characterization is already pretty solid. That's why I thought it might be appropriate to provide you with some higher level stylistic advice. Keep at it.

Thanks. I hope i learn those skills and they actually stick in my chaotic mind. I just wanna write stories and characters that people would relate to and feel, especially young people. Even if only 4 people will read it.

Oh yeah, i forgot to name a title for this episode...dammit.

Edited by Kinni454 on Sep 6th 2022 at 4:10:29 AM

Nevermind

Edited by AdeptGaderius on Sep 13th 2022 at 1:53:19 AM

Hey guys, just one more thing before i go :columbo:

Is there, like, any books i could buy in order to learn how to write better? Or any, like, online websites that could serve as a guide while i'm writing? Like a tutorial in a game?

It could really help me, cause i find it hard to retain information and remember what to do. On that matter, i'm beginning to think i have some sort of undiagnosed disorder that i don't know the name of that makes it really difficult for me to learn.

Anyways, yeah, do you have any suggestions?

Edited by Kinni454 on Sep 6th 2022 at 10:55:11 AM

Writing advice books have never really helped me. The number one fastest way is to just read stuff in the language that you want to write in- it really helps you figure out the word-by-word nitty gritty of writing like nothing else. Don't just read stuff in your genre; read outside your genre, read nonfiction, read stuff you liked as a kid. When you find cool passages and quotes as you read, copy them down in your note-taking medium of choice and work out how the author's words did that and what mental images they evoke for you. When you're really invested in a plot, think about how the story did that and how they built up the plot in that way.

Since Kini 454's turn is over, it is time to move onto Anime Movie. It is a parody fanscript based on various anime shows and the anime fandom in general.

It's been a few days but no one has reviewed it. I recall reading the script a while back but I'll need to reread it again so I won't forget and/or misremember things. I'll do a review of Anime Movie over the weekend.

Ohh... this looks like fun. I'll try my hand at some feedback on Anime Movie:

(Reads script. Ahh... A parody. I need to ask some questions about intent here.)

First thing to address at this point: character voicing. I'm actually a little confused by the voicing here.

• Are Betty and Kenny supposed to be typical western/anglosphere kids As would be portrayed in english media? If so, the entire intro scene's dialogue needs some help:
  • The "Big sis" honorific/mode of address is not something I would expect from such kids.
  • How old is Kenny supposed to be? Based on how he quickly loses control of the bike, the fact that Betty can catch up with the bike, and later interactions with Mizuha Amakusa, I'm estimating somewhere between 5-7 yo? If so, he's way too prolix, or else has a serious case of Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness. (The later might need some fine-tuning, if that's the case.)
  • The parents' lines are a bit over-formal and stilted.
• After being Isikai'd is something happening to make the kids talk more like anime characters are sometimes translated?
  • If so, are they aware of this? How are they reacting?
  • If, on the other hand, they are speaking English, or through Translator Microbes, re-check some of the phrasing they use. eg: "There’s a guy who claims to be my elder male relative" is too precise if she's speaking English, but might make sense if it's translated from idiomatic Japanese. Kenny's "What the hell is that thing?" seems too "Mature" for my estimated 5-7 yo if he's speaking English.
• Alternatively, if the kids are supposed to be westerners As depicted in a Japanese work that happens to have been translated into English (With some oopses regarding Cultural Translation along the way), the whole "Very aware that we're now in Anime-Land" thing isn't quite working for me.

Edited by underCoverSailsman on Sep 18th 2022 at 11:49:42 AM

Regarding the questions:

Yes. Part of the parody's humor relies on the main protagonists reactions to the Anime world. It's also a reference to how American live-action adaptations of anime whitewash characters such as Dragonball Evolution, The Last Airbender, and Ghost in the Shell (2017).

I wrote the story in a few weeks with the assumption that Betty and Kenny are adolescents. Kenny's way of speaking is a spoof of 'little brother' anime characters.

Admittedly, I wrote this parody script on the whim within a few weeks. The ways of speaking was just imitating English dubs of Japanese anime.