Bullying

There's a clear line between standing up for yourself and acting like a prick. Your suggestion for what to do falls into the latter.

There's probably too much pent-up rage and a sense of entitlement. Entitlement will be your lifelong enemy. You aren't entitled to anything. Ever. Wipe that notion off your mind. There may be some rules that work to your advantage, some services or favors or resources you can count on... but always to an extent. To a point. One costless way of stretching said point more than average is treating even the stuff you're "entitled to", "have a right to", as if you were being made a huge favor for which you were immensely grateful and which humbles you. Do try to stroke the egos of everyone you meet. It costs you nothing, done well it makes both of you look good, and most people usually respond very well to the treatment in our culture as long as you're not laying it down too thick.

edited 27th Jun '12 1:18:10 AM by TheHandle

This is not about entitlement. This is about a problem and fixing it. And I think the problem is that there aren't enough repercussions for bullies. That should change, starting with the victims standing up and actually fighting back.

edited 27th Jun '12 1:44:12 AM by IraTheSquire

I'm just saying that there's more to fighting back than allowing oneself to have a violent emotional outburst, especially if the bullies haven't resorted to violence first. Your first priority must not be retribution or justice or even showing them up, your first priority must be:

• getting them to stop forever
• not getting yourself punished in the process (by the teachers, the parents, the bullies, your consciousness, sooner, later, eventually...)

There's no place in this mission for retribution, vengenace, or giving them what they deserve. If you can do it en passant, sure, knock yourself out. Heck, destroy their entire lives, if you really have to, as long as it's an effective means to achieve the two aforementioned ends. But it's more likely than not that going out of your way to enforce karma on them will cost you more than what you will gain, emotionally and otherwise.

And since when have I been suggesting a violent means? I've been avoiding anything physical since the beginning. Trick them, set them up, use loopholes in the rules, etc. The bully in DG's case managed to almost screw up it's victim's life by abusing loopholes. I'd say that we should munchkin the systems in place to give us to bes advantage. This is war.

No it isn't. It's conflict. You don't want to know how war is.

I don't see the difference in this case when the bully is out to RUIN SOMEONE'S LIFE. If it is something limited to verbal teasing I'll say just tell somebody and, if necessary, learn how to not let it get to you. If it is physical beating, well, depends on how far the beating is, and tell other people to stop it. But in this case have somebody who is using a loophole to frame somebody as a potential mass murderer and ruin his life in the same way as putting him on the sex offender's list would. This crosses a line and way beyond simple bullying.

edited 27th Jun '12 4:53:45 AM by IraTheSquire

I must have missed a memo or skipped a page somewhere. What's this, then?

This is from Drunk Girlfriend in page 12:

Now I don't know about you, but I think I would have a very hard time to get accepted in any school if I were known to be expelled for trying to do a mass shooting. I would be hard pressed to get into college, or get a job ("Why did you leave this school, son?"). Way beyond simple bullying, don't you think?

edited 27th Jun '12 5:28:32 AM by IraTheSquire

That's no mere bullying. That's slander of the highest order. That person should be taken to court. And the school authorities should be taken to task for responding in such an inappropriate way.

See, the difference between this and war is that there are rules, and you can use those to your own advantage, if you have been wronged. War gives you no resort but force.

I'd say a second step would be to contact the press. I'm fairly certain some journalists would have a field day with this. A first step would be to have the administration know that, unless measures are taken, the press will be invited to join in on the fun. That should terrorize them. A zero step would be to get a lawyer to asses the legality of each one of these options.

Listen to Handle. He speaks the Good Word of Common Sense.

Read Harry Potter And The Methods Of Rationality! It will make you smarter!

The problem with my case though is that he did nothing to attack me before, and I was the one instigating the fight. The reason my school had a zero-tolerance policy on fights because they knew damn well that if you tried that at say, work, you'd be fired very quickly even if the other person was bullying you for months. It's unfair, yes, but that's how it works I'm afraid.

Again, the bully did become a nicer person after that (not right away, mind you, so I doubt it had to do with our problem). Not all bullies are monsters.

The case Ira mentioned is different, yes. I'd love to see that person put to justice, as well as see the school stop being so light on their punishments, but I hope that a student isn't taking it on themselves to do so, like I did (To clarify, I don't mean getting the press like Handle suggested, that would be a good idea, I mean something like humiliating the bully in the hopes of making him stop, which wouldn't accomplish much).

Note that going to the press might be a risky move. Among the factors you need to anticipate are:

• Who is connected to whom. If the school administration or the bully's parents have good connections in the press or the tribunals, you may find yourself in trouble. If they have leverage over the victim's parents, they could intimidate them or even force them into dropping the charges. Either way, expect the bully's parents to fight you tooth and nail. Their son's future is at stake. The very same thing that would make them very receptive to threats will also make them dangerous opponents if they're stupid enough to call your bluff.
• Whether the press think your story or the other kids' would sell more.
• And, of course, who can pay for the best lawyers.

Getting the kid taken to court is a threat, an ultimatum, a last resort. The real focus should be in getting the victim's record squicky clean, at the bare minimum. Doing something to make the bully feel defeated, beating the fight out of him, forever breaking his will to do harm, is the optimum goal. Anything further, such as actually ruining his life, is overkill, and likely to create a life-long enemy and only result in insecurity for the victim and their family.

edited 27th Jun '12 8:57:41 AM by TheHandle

True. I probably could have phrased what I said better.

How's this: Going to the press shouldn't be your first idea, but it isn't necessarily a bad idea itself. Just don't think that doing that will magically work out for you, and if you screw up, you really screw up. It isn't something for you to do yourself, have others help you, and don't turn it into some stupid complicated scheme like you're some kind of Manipulative/Magnificent Bastard, because you're not.

I suppose I'm more focused on the school fixing themselves than the bully in this case (as that sort of thing should be taken very seriously, not treated as a slap on the wrist).

You guys might find this interesting. This is a chart of standard responses to bullying which range from submissive to aggressive through assertive. It's from here. Note that these are somewhat generic responses to bullying for younger kids, and might not work in extreme situations like DG described.

Actually, Bastards make good use of every ally around them, hire consultants and pay for information, and think their plans through, weighing consequences and outcomes, and try to achieve what they want with the minimum effort possible, often by having their enemies do most of the work. Bastardiness isn't a something you are, it's something you do.

I'm referring more to having the mentality that you can do that when you're not capable to do so. Many teens have that mentality (I was like that for a while, too), and that just makes things worse for them.

Yeah, those are pretty generic. I think the study fails to take the idea of just ignoring them into account, although, granted, that only works on bullies that crave attention.

Oh, you mean the Smug Snake teen who thinks he's a Young Conqueror the likes of Alexander the Great or Light Yagami or Lelouch Vi Britannia? Heh, that should be a Real Life trope unto itself. Don't they know those guys had horrible ends, and accomplished jack shit? But everyone is all about flashes of brilliance. Consolidators like Roosevelt or Augustus or Yang Wen Li just aren't sexy, are they?

Reading that makes me wonder how I could have acted like that at one point. I'll consider myself smart/lucky (whatever you prefer) for not actually attempting anything. But that's another topic entirely.

On the study, it's nice that it encourages parents/teachers to teach assertiveness instead of aggressiveness and submissiveness, especially considering how helpful that is in other circumstances.

@De Marquis:

That list of responses is alright, but not very realistic.

I had some bullying troubles in my early youth, and I'd say somewhere around the 4th grade I learned how to handle myself by toeing the line between what that list defines as assertive and aggressive.

It isn't assertive when the bully tries to take your candy to say "Sorry but this is mine." That's timid victim bullshit. You say "Fuck off, dicksuck." and give him a look that says "If you press the issue and touch me, I'll fight back physically."

The polite and timid response is just as bad as giving in and letting the bully be in control. You can fight without taking the first swing, you just have to demonstrate that you are in no way afraid of making things physical, coupled with very violent and outspoken words.

@De Marquis: amusingly enough, this study reminds me of an episode of Friendship Is Magic which seems like it was made to illustrate it!

Also applies to other forms of entitled pricks, such as abusive authority figures, spoiled brats, insolent students, unscrupulous traders, and other uncivil people.

Because I'm not watching an episode of My Little Pony.. I'll just say this:

Don't be a fucking doormat. Ever. Being a doormat is being a victim.

Well, the list is generic, like I said, so how appropriate it will be will depend on the actual circumstances, esp. the prevailing environment in the school. If the adults are professional and supportive of bullying victims, you could go with less aggressive/more assertive responses perfectly well (that would actually be smarter, since the victim would themselves be less likely to get into trouble). If they aren't, or the school is rough and tumble, then a somewhat more aggressive response may be necessary. Also, it matters how old the kids are. Bullying is not a likely to injure someone in elementary school as it might later on, the stakes are lower, so a less aggressive response is more appropriate. Plus, it's generally a good idea to escalate your response based on the behavior of the bully. Sometimes they back down with the right words, sometimes they don't.

Anyway- "Sorry this is mine" I think is fine, esp. if you have your hand on the candy and the bully physically cant take it away. Calling him names would seem to add nothing, unless you're being tested to see how manly/acceptable you are to the group. There's a fine line between male initiation rituals and bullying/hazing.

edited 27th Jun '12 12:14:04 PM by DeMarquis

That's basically the episode in a nutshell, minus the second part: "Don't overcompensate and become a jerk, either. Jerks alienate people."

I know, Barkey, you don't watch cutesy stuff. You could stand to miss an opportunity to mention that fact every now and then. It's not like anyone was suggesting that you should watch it. I'm just posting it for the benefit of any people on the thread who would want to watch it. The following comments will not require that you watch it.

That episode stars an extremely sweet, absolutely adorable, kind, caring, lovable character... who happens to be an Extreme Doormat, and suffers deeply for it, because people who aren't her friends don't hesitate to step on her feet and push her around and treat her like crap. And it's bad, because she doesn't even feel entitled to a good treatment. "It's no big deal", she mumbles. Her friends try to help her out, and get her an assertiveness coach, pay him in three days, satisfaction guaranteed.

If you aren't going to watch it, you probably won't mind the spoilers. The guy is Old Spice levels of over-the-top, so, while normal people would know not to take his advice to the letter, she did. Not having much experience with assertiveness she took it too far into the other direction, and, well, became progressively as bad as the bullies, hitting her lowest point when she turned on her friends and gave them absolutely scathing lectures on why they sucked, sending them out crying. She immediately realizes what she's done, and feels terrible about it. Again, she overreacts, locking herself into her house. Her friends reassure her of her status, and, eventually, she confronts the coach: with a perfect assertive balance between politeness and firmness, she refused to pay him because she wasn't satisfied. This had never happened to the coach before, and he was rather bemused, but once he made sure that she was being entirely honest, he kept his word, and left.

As for Barkey's advice, that works in school and in certain social environments, but don't fool yourselves. The older we grow, the more refined the tools for verbal violence become. You don't tell a bad boss "you can't steal my idea, you cocksucker". You tell him "I would think I deserve credit for my work". The first says "I'm at a loss for what to do and emotionally lashing out", the second says, in the right tones, "If you even try to pull that trick on me I will sue you so badly that even if you win any advantages from your victory will be negated. At best." However, what the therapists who wrote those charts forgot is that kids don't understand implications on that level, and that resorting to extreme vulgarity is indeed a very, very good approach.

Maybe they didn't include the bad words because it would have been bad PR for them ("Are you the psychologist who has been teaching my sweet child to use such wonderful words, doctor?").

But yeah, regardless of the politeness of the wording or the level of the register, the most essential component of assertiveness is the looming threat right behind the words. The intimidation. Talk softly, and carry a big stick.

Of course, you can't well intimidate people if you're timid yourself. In order to display a firm belief in your capacity to inflict suffering and retribution (of any form) into your potential aggressor, you should actually have that capacity, and, ideally, get to demonstrate it.

How does one go about that though? By having a school system that actually accommodates that? Or maybe a sort of Fight Club? I remember that arc in Historys Strongest Disciple Kenichi where there was a karate dojo that catered specifically to bullied kids, explicitly teaching them dirty tactics and quick ways to winning a fight by any means at their disposal. The results were very fast, and that was the problem: the kids enjoyed too much of a release, too fast, and went downright psychotic with the pleasure of turning the tables on their aggressors. They couldn't communicate well that they were an implicit threat, and so they actually had to go and act on it...

Actually because the stakes are lower, one needs to resort to more relative violence, in word and in deed, to achieve the same result. And I didn't know there was a line between bullying and initiation, more of a continuum. In wonky "primal era terms", you've got to prove to the others that you will be able to face the lion when it comes without running away and betraying the group, and they'll check that by intimidating, prodding and pushing you themselves. If you can't stand up to them, chances are yo can't stand by them either, and if so you are useless, inferior, and deserving of being exploited and extorted for all you're worth, you miserable sniveling cowardly little caterpillar.

edited 27th Jun '12 12:28:41 PM by TheHandle