Should we trim the redirects a little?

So, I was going through the YMMV Redirects, assigning custom titles to them like the Grammar Nazi that I am (nobody ever customises redirect titles, am I right?), when I realised that many them don't really serve a useful purpose. Here's a few very many examples of what I mean:

1. Redirects with a hyphen (Heavy-Handed, Mis-Blamed, X-Pac Heat) - not only are they redundant with the new custom title system, but they are also impractical for links as they require using {{}}. We really should exterminate them along with the ptitle redirects.
2. Redirects that are merely word swaps (Dubbing versus Subbing, Dubbing vs. Subbing, Unleaded Nightmare Fuel, So Average, It's Okay).
3. Redirects that differ by a single plural/singular (Good Bad Bug, Heartwarming Moment, Vocal Minorities) - you can link to these using the {{|}} markup.
4. Redirects that omit the article (Chris Carter Effect, Firefly Effect, Woobie).
5. Redirects that change the verb's tense or person (most of the redirects for Growing the Beard and Jumping the Shark, Cross the Line Twice, Your Mileage Might Vary).
6. Redirects that change prepositions or conjunctions (Vindicated by Video, Vindicated on Video, They Copied It, Now It Sucks, It's Popular, So It Sucks!).
7. Redirects that omit a single word (WTH Casting, Backwards Funny Aneurysm, The Fandom Rejoiced) - again you can do that with the {{|}} markup.
8. Acronyms and Initialism not used outside certain circles (BLAM, BNF, OTP, HSQ).
9. Character-related names, either legacy or added after launching, with no usage (Dave And Maddie Syndrome, Sasami Syndrome, The Kim Bauer, The Kimberly).

There are also combinations of these, none of which provide any extra information, or are significantly more convenient to type than the main title, so they end up just being there with no wicks or inbounds. I know redirects are free and all, but shouldn't they have more justification to exist than someone not feeling like using a Pot Hole that one time?

edited 10th Jun '11 7:05:09 PM by Killomatic

1 and 8 yes, the others seem fine.

Why get rid of Redirects unless they are specifically causing probelms? They are free after all.

There's free and then there's space-wasting junk. A redirect that is not being used is a useless redirect. Doesn't it bug you to have 5 or more redirects to an article that serve no point? What if someone starts adding all possible variations of these to every trope they come across, just because it's "free"?

Also, I'm pretty sure the article and the plural / singular thing is against the current guidelines.

edited 10th Jun '11 7:19:49 PM by Killomatic

No. Why should it? I doubt they take much in terms of server space. Fast Eddie would have to tell us if they cause much server processing load. But really, I don't see the problem. Heck, going through your list.

1: Artifact of the pre-custom titles days. Yeah, could be changed and removed now.

2: Pretty much one of the reason redirects were invented: In case people did not remember the precise way a title was spelled or written. No reason to remove.

3: I'll point out that in #1, you were complaining how these redirect, which required {{}} were impractical. But now you are telling us redirects that remove the need for {{}} also redundant. Inconsistent much? Vocal Minorities is also an irregular plural (y > ies), which is specifically allowed for in the rules for redirects. see Creating New Redirects.

4: Those that omit the article are much easier to use in a sentence. See "Wall-E is a bit of a Woobie" versus "Wall-E is a bit of a The Woobie".

5: See above. Ease of use in description and sentences.

6: See #2. Pretty much one of the original purposes of redirects to begin with.

7: And again, you have described how you find that markup inpractical. So you should like those redirects no?

8: Those I agree should be purged.

9: Ditto for those, unless they get huge inbounds, but I know lots of people like em.

Anyway, as I was saying, even allowing for the two cases I do agree, I don't think redirects are causing enough harm to justify the massive effort to cut most of them.

edited 10th Jun '11 7:29:25 PM by Ghilz

then there's space-wasting junk.

I'm sure the server will survive the crushing burden of holding the redirect information.

Redirects are alternate routes to the same page. Having them is only a problem if they are misleading or confusing.

Legacy redirects are usually there to keep from breaking inbounds. We can't fix inbound links the way we can wicks, and bouncing people who are trying to get to a page that was linked somewhere else on the web a year and a half ago, before we changed the name, to a 404 page or the Home page instead of letting them go to the page they want is bad nettiquette.

Pronoun variants are there so that the trope can be used to describe a character of either gender without requiring that it be potholed for one.

Plural redirects are ok as long as it's a case where the pluralizing requires something besides tacking an "s'" or "es" onto the last word (woman to women, for example, or dwarf to dwarves. You can't change Vocal Minority to the plural by simply adding an "s" , you have to do the whole change the "Y" to "I" and then add "es". thing.) or where the word that needs to be pluralized is in the beginning or middle of the name (Artifact Of Doom would be pluralized to Artifacts of Doom, not Artifact of Dooms.) Same goes in reverse for singulars of trope names that are in the plural.

Word swaps are generally ok, because it makes it easier to properly link without stopping to go look up "Is it "subbing" first, or "dubbing"?" Prepositions swaps are generally ok for the same reason.

Changing the tense or person is ok for the same reason as the plurals — it generally cannot be done by simply adding a letter.

And they aren't really wasting space enough to worry about. If they're being used, they're serving their purpose. If they aren't being used, they're taking up a truly minuscule bit of server space and no bandwidth.

edited 10th Jun '11 7:36:27 PM by Madrugada

Also of note that redirects are for searching anyway, so their utility goes beyond what can be judged by statistics in most cases. If a trope goes by many names, or might be looked for by many names, then several redirects may be required to maximise efficient location of the trope by those who do not know the current name.

I've been wanting to clear out a lot of the redirects in Ultra Super Death Gore Fest Chainsawer 3000. I'm not sure you need to improve searchability with that name, and they really clutter the alt-titles bar on the page. Keep maybe one or two of the shorter ones for easy linking.

To begin with, though, I'd eliminate any alternate spelling of the title that has no wicks or inbounds.

Of course, I'm not sure I SHOULD do this. But this seems a good topic to bring it up in.

Oh wow, Ultra Super Death Gore Fest Chainsawer 3000 shows exactly what happens when you take the whole "redirects are free" thing literally. 13 alternate title, with a collective wick count of zero. Half of them are just minor variations on each other. I'm all for clever alternate names, but this is officially going too far.

I'd also like to point out that now that we're using google search, you no longer need to get the title exactly right to find the page, since it automatically fixes word order, prepositions, articles and tenses for you, making types #2 and #6 obsolete.

When I said the {{}} was impractical, I meant that in the case when it's copying the functions of the custom titles (#1). Why do we have the {{|}} markup, if we're not using it for singulars or irregular plurals (you can do them if it's the last word, like so {{Vocal Minorit|y}}ies) or for linking minus the last word? It seems strange to me that we don't allow regular plurals, but are okay with regular singulars when they can be done using the same markup with a minor modification. (And if we had markup that can hide parts from the left end of the string, we could drop #4 as well).

As for the character-named redirects (note that I only mention ones with no significant inbounds), that's basically the same as declaring something the Most Triumphant Example. If it was the original name, keep a record of it on Former Trope Namers, but you don't need a redirect for that.

To repeat - wick count means absolutely nothing with redirects. They're not being used for potholes, nor should they be, but for searching. Inbounds? Ditto, those come from the main name. The titles are aids, and it's really picky to complain about one extra line of text on the main page caused by those extra redirects.

That argument works if the alt titles are significantly different. When you just swap the word order, or the verb tense or the preposition, the search engine will find it regardless if there is or isn't a redirect for it, unless you're using quote marks, which you don't do unless you're sure of the title.

I feel like if the redirects are similar then we should keep them. Heck, that's one of the original purposes of redirects, so you don't have to remember "Was it this word or that one that came first. And were the words spelled out or abbreviated? Etc." Having to force a person to look up a trope every time they use it because we deleted all the similar redirects is, quite frankly, stupid. There's no harm in having a lot of redirects, assuming they're related to the page content, so why is this an issue?

edited 11th Jun '11 9:25:50 AM by KrisMahai

As mentioned, Google Search looks for key words anyways, so redirects that consist of just a rearrangement do not help.

For the most part, I'm not overly concerned with one or two redirects. It's just Ultra Super Death Gore Fest Chainsawer 3000 that bugs me, like that minor itch on your back that you just can't reach... Look at the redirect section, not only do all the alternate spellings clutter it up, they hide the shorter names that may help for easy linking.

Now you guys are contradicting each other. Are the redirects supposed to be used in example lists or are they for aiding in searching?

I don't know, I like things to be done the most optimal way possible, so the whole idea that we let anyone add any kind of frivolous redirect to any trope just because they were too lazy to make a pothole or read the markup help or take the 5 seconds to look up the proper title feels like a step in the wrong direction to me. When I'm adding new links I usually check them before I safe, just to make sure they weren't changed to point somewhere else since the last time I looked, but I guess expecting the average editor to be that thorough is just elitist thinking on my part.

They're for searching - for the readers, not the editors.

So, you're saying they shouldn't be used in examples then?

They can be for the editors too. Off the top of my head, I usually use Example Indentation instead of Example Indentation In Trope Lists, I alternate freely between People Sit On Chairs-People Sitting On Chairs and We Have This One Already-We Already Have This One, and it's a lot easier to type "It's an AudienceReaction" than "It's an [[AudienceReactions Audience Reaction]]".

In general, trope lists should list them as the main title, not the alternate title, although there are exceptions (an Internal Subtrope, for example, should probably be allowed to stay listed under its alt-title).

edited 11th Jun '11 11:21:34 AM by troacctid

Potholes and example lists should use the main trope name in most cases. The redirects exist so that people can find the page.

One relevant point though - the policy dates back from when the title search was on the main page, and thus more used than google search. Since google search picks up keywords from the description and not just the title, it's something to consider.

^^^ I'd say as long as the trope is still recognizable (IE, He Got Better and He Gets Better are pretty obviously the same trope) it's fine for a redirect to be used in an example list. I'd say renamed tropes shouldn't be used in example lists, but the redirects should be kept for inbounds/people who didn't know it was renamed. It's not as if redirects have to have one purpose only.

^^ You could also use {{Audience Reaction|s}} (becomes Audience Reaction), AKA "that formatting no one knows about". :P

Heheh.

edited 11th Jun '11 11:30:40 AM by KrisMahai

You could always write "It's an {{AudienceReaction|s}}."

Edit: Dammit. Ninja'd. XD

edited 11th Jun '11 11:28:18 AM by Unknownlight

Nah, only markup snobs like us do that.

^ True. :P

In any case, I'd say redirects in general are versatile and don't have to be used for a specific person. I do also agree that the redirects on Violent Video Game (Ultra Chainfest Gore whatever the hell it's called) could be trimmed down a little. You'd just have to get them past the cutmasters.

...Or maybe not, because virtually all the redirects are easier to remember than the actual trope name. Still, they don't have any wicks. Well, do what you will.

edited 11th Jun '11 11:35:26 AM by KrisMahai

Wait, you could do Death?

When did you guys implemented that?

That's been part of the markup forever; it's just very obscure.

Yeah, it's one of those arcane skills that you only get form reading one of the mystic scrolls over at the administrivia section.

We can always put it in the regular markup help though, it's not like there's no room.

edited 11th Jun '11 2:25:11 PM by Killomatic