Explain Expies: Characters.Pokemon

No Pun Intended

The title refers to the Pokémon individual species sheets. Here are links to all of them:

• Pokémon Generation I Families
• Pokémon Generation II Families
• Pokémon Generation III Families
• Pokémon Generation IV Families
• Pokémon Generation V Families

Now, I am seeing a big problem with Expies. There seems to be multiple ways in which Pokémon can be Expies. Right now, Pokémon seem to qualify for Expies in the following ways:

• In appearance: i.e. Woobat = Zubat (based on bats)
• In 'dex description: i.e. Shuppet = Misdreavus (Emotion Eaters)
• In general gameplay niche (stats, moveset, habitat, or evolutionary pattern): i.e. Roggenrola = Geodude
• Any combination of the above

Now, I think that if we identify a Pokémon as an Expy of an earlier Pokémon, I think we need slightly more detailed explanations as to why it can be considered an Expy.

For example, the Generation III Families page simply states that the Aron line is an expy of the Rhyhorn line. Now, I don't see anything in common besides the Rock typing and both becoming bipedal upon evolution. Rhyhorn and Aron's base stats are different and Aron is not based on a rhinoceros. Also, Aron lives in caves while Rhyhorn lives in open fields.

All the ways of identifying expies that you've listed are correct and valid.

Lairon and Aggron strongly resemble Rhyhorn and Rhydon in physical appearance, typing, stat distribution, and moveset. That example is good.

Okay, their stats are distributed similarly, though Aggron has more focus on Defense while Rhydon has balances HP and Defense. However, I've inspected their natural movesets as of Generation V. The only move they share is Take Down. Otherwise their movesets are completely different.

Now, back on topic. I don't want each description to simply state: Pokémon Y is an Expy of Pokémon X. I want it to be explained which of the characteristics of Expies I have listed it fulfills.

You Could Always Edit It Yourself. But yeah. Just "X is an Expy of Y" is somewhat cumbersome. One sort-of-problem is that people doing comparison will need to load a different page, as most expies are done across generations (Woobat).

This sounds like a potentially large and arduous project requiring quite bit of research. I mean, that's a lot of mons.

edited 17th Apr '11 5:33:45 PM by MousaThe14

Not that hard in my experience. We have done quite some research Just for Fun anyway.

... *double takes*

When... When did that have it's own page here?

Woobat and Zubat don't seem like expies to me; they have different movesets, different stat destributions, drastically different appearances, and different typings.

The only similarity is that both are based on bats. Is Miltank an expy of Tauros because both are based on bovines? I mean, those two are even more similar (Same type exactly).

edited 18th Apr '11 10:24:21 AM by Scardoll

Miltank is a Distaff Counterpart, at least out-of-universe wise. The expy proper is Bouffalant.

Woobat always felt like a spiritual succor to me like replacing Zubat as the frequent cave dwelling like how Rattata and Pidgey always have a generational comparative based on position in the world and just what they are and their purpose.

They're both bat Pokemon with a high speed stat that appear in most caves with a high encounter rate.

Right, exactly. That's why Pokemon has so many expies—they have all these niches they need to fill.

edited 18th Apr '11 10:37:36 AM by troacctid

It is a recurrent trend in the different generations intended to make gameplay simpler for beginners and at the same time rememorative for oldtimers. Each generation has, say, the three starters, a two-stage Normal type, an early bird, two early bug lines, a Fun Size or fairy like legendary, a cave dweller, etc.

Well, troacctid is right about Woobat and Zubat. They're based on the same animal and their stats are distributed similarly.

Now, here's one I'd like to argue:

Taillow is often thought to be an Expy of Pidgey, but, after some research, I've concluded that Taillow is an Expy of Spearow, due to evolutionary patterns and stat distribution.

How can prove for sure that Pokemon are expies? We have no idea what the creators intended when designing Pokemon.

edited 19th Apr '11 7:01:02 PM by Redhead

To my knowledge, knowing the creators's mindsets are not requisite for an expy; recognizability is, even more when in the Pokémon case. I already spoke about trends and how they are used to make the gaming experience clearer and fill battle and overworld niches. The page image in Expy speaks for itself, just substitute as adequate: it's all about three starters, a three-stage basic bird thing (Pidgey→Starly), a two-stage Normal type rodent or similar land critter, a Pikaclone in everything but the name for franchise whoring, and eventually a fun size Legendary.

In some ways, that seems more like a Suspiciously Similar Substitute than anything else.

First paragraph in Expy:"Short for "Exported Character", an Expy is a character from one series who is unambiguously and deliberately based on a character in another, older series. A few minor traits — such as age and name — may change, but there's no doubt that they are almost one and the same. Often seen in different works by the same writer(s) or production team." Gameplay niches are relevant, but are not the only thing. Brawly is not Chuck Expy despite the same gameplay role because he is -blatantly- NOT based on him. Really, ANY Expy qualifies as "suspiciously similar".

edited 20th Apr '11 1:59:33 PM by MagBas

Suspiciously Similar Substitute isn't a good fit, though - that explicitly states it's for when a character leaves the cast, and none of the Pokemon in question have left the game. Yeah, it's not until later that you can bring them into the games in question, but they're still capable of being there.

As for the developer intentions... hey, when you see, for the fifth time in a row, the introduction of a two-stage Normal-type Pokemon that's fairly common, has roughly the same stats, and is visually based off of a small mammal, you do start seeing the patterns in terms of development. Yeah, you could argue that Sentret, Zigzagoon, Bidoof, and Patrat aren't expies of Rattata, since we don't specifically have Word of God on the subject... but that does strain credulity, given how alike they all are.

It's worth noting that Pokemon tends to use its expies more in terms of an ecological niche rather than strictly stats or abilities. Zubat and Woobat are great examples. Using them and fighting them definitely play differently... that said, in the first four generations, Zubats were more prevalent in caves than "Stop Having Fun" Guys at video game tournaments, and Woobat is just as common in caves in the fifth generation. And it's not just the iconic characters (the starters, Pikachu, early-game Normal types, etc.) that get these, too - Finneon & Lumineon are expies for Goldeen & Seaking (two-stage Water types with roughly equivalent stat spreads and movesets).

That said, given just how common expies are for previously-created 'mons, we probably should cut out many of the examples simply because it's crowding the pages. If we put a general note under the character pages about how the same patterns repeat for common classes of Pokemon, we can use one Expy entry to cover a couple dozen entries.

That said, we do need to make sure to keep some - given that people from Creatures and Game Freak worked on other games before this, some of the 'mons are expies of characters from previous games. Most famously, Mewtwo is an expy of how Giygas appears in Mother. You also have ones like Shiftry for the Territorial Oak (right down to being Made of Explodium) and Smeargle for Vinci. Those expy links should stay in place.

About this... circa half of the new non-legendary families in each new generation is two-stage, and i can be mistaken, but... which the housecat's size? And which's the racoon's size? By the way, based in the Bulbapedia, here are their stats: Rattata- Hp:30, Attack: 56, Defense: 35, Sp. Atk: 25, Sp. Def: 35, Speed: 72. Sentret- Hp: 35, Attack: 46, Defense:34, Sp. Atk.:35, Sp.Def:45, Speed: 20. Zigzagoon- Hp: 38, Attack:30, Defense: 41, Sp. Attk: 30, Sp. Def:41, Speed: 60. Bidoof- Hp:59, Attack: 45, Defense: 40, Sp.Atk: 35, Sp. Def: 40, Speed: 31. Patrat- Hp: 45, Attack: 55, Defense: 39, Sp. Atk: 35, Sp. Def: 39, Speed: 40. And now, other normal type pokemon to comparison:Meowth- Hp: 40, Attack: 45, Defense: 35, Sp. Atk: 40, Sp. Def: 40, Speed: 90. Skitty- Hp:50, Attack: 45, Defense: 45, Sp. Atk: 35, Sp. Def: 35, Speed: 50. Buneary- Hp: 55, Attack: 66, Defense: 44, Sp. Atk: 44, Sp. Def: 56, Speed: 85. ... Sentret, Bidoof and Patrat have not similar stats.

edited 22nd Apr '11 8:37:49 AM by MagBas

You can't merely look at stats to decide, in the case of Pokemon, what are expies of what.

Let's take, for instance, Water-type starters. This is a clear instance of expy-dom. There's always one three-stage evolutionary family of Water types that are only available (outside of breeding or events) as your initial starting Pokemon, and choosing it impacts events further in the game (what your rival picks and, in the fifth generation, what gym leader you fight first). They have roughly the same aggregate stat totals, the same Turns Red ability, and even the same gender ratios (7 out of every 8 will be generated male).

That said, their stat spreads are rather different. Blastoise, the original, is built more to be a Stone Wall. Feraligatr is more of a Mighty Glacier with the ability to become a physical Lightning Bruiser. Swampert is a multifaceted Mighty Glacier that's commonly perceived to be more useful than all the others combined. Empoleon is like Feraligatr, but more capable on the special side. And Samurott is a slightly more durable than average Glass Cannon.

If you look merely at the stats, you're not going to see many Expies because, due to being able to bring back 'mons previously introduced, they generally avoid having them fall in the exact same gameplay niche. But if you look at the in-universe ecology and how everything is set up for game progress, you're going to see just why one of the fandom's biggest complaints (fair or not) is the sheer number of repeated archetypes from the series - or, in TV Tropes parlance, the flood of expies.

Going by that, it'd probably be quicker to name the first-generation Pokemon that didn't get Expies later in the series.

While we are on the subject of the Pokemon characters list, my use of Jessie for the page image of anime subsection of MsFanservice was (at first) removed because the same image of her was also on the characters page of the Pokemon anime.

Should we replace the image of Jessie on said characters page with another image of her, then?

edited 22nd Apr '11 8:46:48 AM by neoYTPism

Three stage- families are few in the series . Two stage-families are the majority. The bigger proof? Appeared two pure normal-type families based in small mammals with two stage evolution in Diamond/ Pear- Buneary and Glameowl(of course, Bidoof is one VISUAL Expy. The same thing to Patrat. Sentret, however, not follows Rattata's role- Rattata itself follows it.- neither remembers it physically...) Related to it, exist 8 gym leaders in each generation. And many have the same types. And some have the same "position" in the game(Pryce, Candice and Brycen are the seventh gym leader, Brock, Roxanne and Roark are the first gym leader, Wattson and Lt.Surge are the third gym leader, Jasmine and Byron are the sixth gym leader, Drayden, Iris and Clair are the eigth gym leader) They are Expies?

edited 22nd Apr '11 9:46:23 AM by MagBas

So, makes a sure-fire Expy, anyway? In the OP, I posted some bullet points on what could make an Expy, but it seems that stats aren't a very good indicator.

Stats become a significantly better indicator if you include typing as a stat.

Okay, so stats combined with typing makes a good candidate for Expy.

Now, how about moveset? I'd like to argue that Joltik is an Expy of Spinarak because they share the move Spider Web. Also, they share a typing and an basis in spiders.

edited 23rd Apr '11 10:42:51 AM by WaxingName