The Order of the Stick

@Herald Alberich: the last comic looks like it's supposed to be set at dawn. Unless that's a particularly large full moon. Also unless we're being informed of a time skip, I'm not sure what the point would be of cutting away to the surface given that I... think? the dwarves are walking through an underground cavern (they mention being "this close to the surface", which I'd interpret as precluding being on the surface, and IIRC the temple to Thor is the only surface entrance to Firmament).

Basically, I think that was supposed to be an Establishing Shot to tell us it's now dawn, but achieves the opposite of an Establishing Shot because it confuses where the action of the strip is actually happening.

Edited by johnnye on Feb 21st 2019 at 3:38:35 PM

You're right, I missed the significance of that panel completely. It's absolutely meant to tell us it's morning now, since the action is all underground and there's no other way to tell.

I don't think the temple has the only surface door, though, it just has a separate private one that the Order used so they wouldn't have to talk their way past the guards at the main entrance.

So how did two vampires manage to Dominate three people before anyone could do anything?

There's three vampires.

But the third doesn't show up until after all three are dominated.

One vampire simply takes two turns. There we go. They didn't dominate them on the spot, presumably

Surprise round, Improved Initiative.

Maybe even a dose of Haste.

They probably buffed before they pitched up.

With regard to the discussion of Dvalin simply overriding the council - I was actually thinking about something else and backed into this subject from another direction.

One of the problems the goblins have in the long run is that the only god advocating for them to the other pantheons is evil. This puts the goblins in a similar position to the dwarves, whereby they go to an evil afterlife by default, but without any obvious loopholes. So... is it possible for gods to change their alignment? Dvalin breaking his highest oath could be an important case study in that, and in any case how the situation with Thor and Hel is handled could have important implications for the goblins later on.

The situations aren't really the same, the goblinoids can worship other gods if they so choose to do so, they just don't. And there's no indication that the Dark One tortures the souls that go to him or anything.

Whereas the dwarves have no control over the bet, and Hel's domain is very explicitly awful.

Edited by LSBK on Feb 27th 2019 at 11:36:51 AM

I don't think gods can change alignment, at least not by themselves. They are formed out of the purest of ideas, not born and raised by experiences. The only way they can change is if their believers believe them to be changed.

I thought part of the reason the Dark One was able to ascend in the first place was because none of the existing gods wanted the souls of a race of cannon fodder so the goblins started worshiping him instead?

Nothing like that has been stated.

The Dark One ascended (or so the story told by Red Cloak goes) after a million or more goblins devoted themselves to him after his death and went on a rampage.

Nothing was ever said about the existing gods not wanting their souls, and I'd find it very hard to belive that any of the gods would be that way considering what souls actually mean to them. Besides, the goblins aren't the only cannon fodder race - kobloids are too, for example, and they're big on worshipping Tiamat.

Edited by LSBK on Feb 28th 2019 at 3:13:54 AM

The goblins seem pretty happy with their afterlife, if Jirix is anything to go by. It’s the only exception we’ve seen to the Lower Planes being, well, hellish.

That's an interesting point, because we know from Roy's experience that souls raised from the dead do not remember any specifics of their afterlives, or at least the part after their initial judgment. They can retain deliberately implanted ideas, like Jirix's message to Redcloak from the Dark One or Roy's Spellsplinter feat, but that's it.

Before anyone brings up Durkon, he never entered his afterlife; his spirit spent all its time hanging out with Thor.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 28th 2019 at 9:16:18 AM

Maybe the convo happened on the cloud. Jirix says he was about to join the legion. That could be the goblin equivalent of Valhalla.

You're probably right. Jirix and Durkon both just spent a bit of time chatting with their gods before going back; neither entered the afterlife proper.

Edited by HeraldAlberich on Feb 28th 2019 at 10:35:26 AM

I took the Dark One's Army thing to imply that they were somewhere like the Infernal Battlefield of Acheron, which is a lawful evil-ish afterlife where loyalty takes precedence over morality and there's endless fighting between factions for no reason.

Not sure that makes any cosmological sense (are goblins lawful evil?) but it's the sort of vibe I got.

Is that the one made up of enormous cubes and other polygons made of iron? Because "vast iron plateau" would support that. I believe it's the "I was just following orders" plane in Thor's lesson, which makes a lot of sense.

Goblins might not be Lawful Evil by default, but the Dark One presumably is. Redcloak definitely is.

Yeah it's the iron cube one.

The followers of The Dark One will get to an Evil afterlife, where they will have to fight for eternity. They know this, and think that they will enter The Dark One's army to gloriously fight in the army of their god for the good of goblinkind. However, they are deceived, and will enter into a literal War Is Hell instead.

Or rather, Hell is War.

Hell Is War is a trope, and Acheron is an example. Weirdly on the exact opposite end of the wheel is Ysgard, a Warrior Heaven.

I think, if the Dark Ones followers are aware of Acheron (or whatever afterlife they go to, if it's not actually Acheron), they see it as serving a greater purpose and take comfort in that.

Hel: But I'm not even a good of war!

New comic!