Headscratchers / TMNT

• What exactly was Leonardo's complaint about the Nightwatcher? It makes Leo look like a gigantic hypocrite for hunting down a guy for doing the exact same thing the Turtles had been doing for years. Once revealed as Raphael it makes more sense (his antics could bring attention to the Turtles and risk their family's safety) but Leo wasn't using that rationale before. IIRC, he didn't really use any rationale. Even the writers themselves seemed to know this: when Leo was chewing Nightwatcher out (before the Raph reveal) we don't get to hear what Leo was saying. It's as if they knew that there wasn't any logical argument Leo could employ that couldn't easily be turned back around on him, so they just didn't try.
  • Being a violent vigilante is wrong and a crime. What the Turtles do is literally all they get to do in the human world, it's a bit hypocritical yes but Leo's not wrong.
  • Leo is being hypocritical — at best, his argument is along the lines of, "Only me and my brothers should be doing the ninja vigilante thing, because we know how to do it right and you're going to get yourself and others hurt."
  • Probably a bit of hypocrisy, probably a bit of the Nightwatcher's (rather overblown) reputation. It seems the Nightwatcher is rather known for just beating the ever-living crap out of criminals, and while what we see isn't really any worse than the stuff the brothers usually do, Raph does have a temper so it's possible he's taken it a little far a few times. Leonardo might be protesting less the vigilantism than the violence level.
  • The novelization offers a few tidbits. Don says the Nightwatcher is a criminal because he basically has no accountability (Raph does call out the hypocrisy but that is dropped). When Leo finds out about the Nightwatcher he says "this guy could bring heat on all of us" and "showboating isn't a replacement for justice. Someone needs to talk to this thug". I personally don't get this. Nobody raises an issue with the violence or that they were doing the same thing. The problem I feel is no matter how they frame it would be odd. If they made it an issue that the Nightwatcher was too violent, Raph would seem really unlikable and extreme plus it would be weird how the other Turtles put up with him. Going for a vague "he's bringing heat plus showing off" keeps the characters in the clear even when it doesn't really make sense.
  • Have the Turtles ever approved of other vigilantes? A vigilante is a wild card, they never know if they're going to be unstable or go too far. The Turtles have not only been taught how to fight, but also how to restrain themselves so as to not seriously hurt people unless absolutely necessary.
    • Agreed. In the 2003 series, when a new superhero came out, Leo was wary and said they needed to make sure he wasn't a maniac in a suit. The turtles may be vigilantes, but they were taught to hold back. Very little is known about the Nightwatcher, but his temper was pretty clear, so Leo, already in a bad mood because of Raph quitting, clings onto that and probably believed he wasn't of good enough character to be trusted. And in his defense, right before he calls the "Nightwatcher" out, Raph was yelling at a clerk for treating him like a bad guy, and to a passerby that looks pretty bad. That's not even getting into the clear Creator's Favorite going on... Leo's side of the story seems to be deliberately told badly (we never see his motivations while we see Raph's) to make Raph's side seem better. Not to say that Raph is in the wrong; both sides have points to be made, but Leo's was given the short end of the stick.
  • Actually, in some subtitled versions and if you can find the transcript, when the POV switches to Raph, you can see Leo is saying "The road you're on is a dead end. Believe me. I've tried it", possibly referencing his brief stint as a vigilante in Central America (in the beginning of the movie) and he has perhaps become disillusioned. His overall speech essentially means "Look, I understand why you are a vigilante. I was one too, but it ultimately does no good and I don't want you to to make the same mistakes I made."
  • This is brought up in the Fridge Brilliance page, but it’s likely that Leo’s complaint with the Nightwatcher is that he’s heading down a pretty dark path. Donatello brought it up earlier in the movie, that Raph believes that fear is the best way to accomplish things. Moreover, Raph has always had issues with his anger and holding back. So, take into account all of this: a belief in the power of fear over all other methods. A penchant for excessive force. And seemingly no one to keep him in check. It’s entirely likely that Leo sees the Nightwatcher as a proto-Shredder.
• How in the world did Leo fail to recognize Raph as the Nightwatcher until he knocked his helmet off? The clues were all there. Heck, even Casey Jones knew upon his first meeting with the Nightwatcher and he hasn't known Raph nearly as long!
  • Casey had likely been watching/reading about the Nightwatcher's exploits for quite some time, whereas Leo had only recently learned about him. Remember also that they have fought other turtles in the past (Road Hogs, Tokka, Slash, Metalhead). It could have been one of them or yet another turtle.
  • According to the movie prequel comics, Raph's version of Nightwatcher is a Legacy Character and the previous Nightwatcher was a man. His outfit looked more or less, the same, except maybe for the big shell, which could be easily mistaken for a backpack (or a jetpack, which Mike mentions once). I guess Casey just got lucky.
• The Stone Generals say that they have 12 of the 13 monsters and conspire to fake Leo as the 13th. But the Loch Ness Monster and Jersey Devil have yet to be captured. Are there 14 monsters?
  • They may have captured the Jersey Devil offscreen during the Leonardo vs Raphael fight. Since it could only have happened immediately after it escaped from Raph, that would also explain why they found Leo right after the fight: because they were already close after catching the Jersey Devil.
    • The Jersey Devil can actually be seen under General Mono's arm as he carries off Leo so this seems to be the likely explanation

• in the scene showing Winter's personal museum collection, several of the artifacts depicting Winters, such as the bust depicting him as an egyptian pharoah, are actually far older than the 3000 years the film claims for when the first portal event occurred. Not to mention that the mesoamerican clothing elements of the general and army in that opening scene reference distinctive parts of Aztec, Mayan, and Inca cultures which are far younger than 3000 years. (while the exact dates are a little fuzzy, the Aztec empire didn't arise until around the 1300's AD, the Inca around the 1100's AD, and only the Mayans date back older to around 750 bc.. but the recognizable mayans who's styles are used in the film only show up around 800 AD. and the styles used in the film all date to the 1400's to 1600's period when they were being conquered by the Spanish.) The Premise is fun, but the history in it is very much Anachronism Stew meets Hollywood History, and would have benefited from the writers making the original event much farther back in time (anything before 5000 BC would have worked fine, instead of 1000BC) and being less obvious in stealing clothing styles for the general and their army.

• How exactly was Leonardo supposed to learn how to lead, by being sent off to live alone in a jungle for several years?
  • In the 2003 animated series, at one point, Leo had to travel abroad to train under the Ancient One, after his PTSD made him jaded and angry. In the prequel comics, we see Leo is training under the Ancient One like the show (although, that is only part of his training). Not sure if the movie prequel is canon or not, but it is entirely possible, that he completed his training with the Ancient One but (since he mentions that he feels he isn't ready when he met April in the movie), he simply though he must continue to train alone in the jungle.

• Leonardo confronts Nightwatcher on the roof and demands he stop "this vigilante nonsense." Uh Leo? That guy in the hockey mask, you know, your friend Casey Jones? He's a vigilante too. Not to mention the fact that you and your brothers are hardly duly deputized agents of the law.
  • Leo, like a lot of crime fighters, don't think of themselves as vigilantes. Double Standard ? Yes. However if you look at Batman when new heroes move into Gotham without his approval or the Turtles reaction to Casey Jones it seems clear that to Leo a vigilante is someone who is engages in unnecessary roughness.
  • Also the Turtles are not explicitly crime fighters. If this movie is in continuity with the other they mostly fight defensively against the Foot. Their first battle was explicitly a test of their ninja combat and stealth skills, and the other time they're fighting ordinary street crime is when their pizza is in the building being robbed. The third film even has Raph and Mikey feeling like their life has little purpose since they have nothing to do with the Foot gone.
  • It is established early on (through the conversations between April and Casey and through some supplementary material as well as an interview with the director) that everyone believes that Casey has quit being a vigilante and helping April in her job. April is aware that he occasionally sneaks out to fight crime, kind of like a smoker who is trying to quit (some of this subplot was cut due to Executive Meddling, but elements of this is still in the final finished product). Out of all the Turtles, Raph is the only one who knows that Casey is still an active vigilante. Leo, probably like the others, believes Casey has quit for good.
• Why are the 13 monsters in New York? And how does Winters know they would come there? They’ve been on Earth for 3 Millenia, shouldn’t they have been all across the planet? Why are they suddenly converging on New York?