YMMV Pokemon Discussion

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Ferot_Dreadnaught
Topic
02:46:50 PM Nov 24th 2015
This entry is currently listed under Broken Base:

  • Pikachu's Wolverine Publicity and Spotlight-Stealing Squad tendencies are very contentious with some fans. After the initial wave of "Pokémania" in the '90s where both Pikachu and the Pokémon franchise itself became subjects of mockery, the issue reached its peak in the fandom with Pokémon Black and White, where Pikachu was heavily marketed and advertised despite not only being the only older Pokémon in said merchandising (apart from Meowth in the anime), but also being unobtainable in the games without trading or transferring. As a result, some found its marketing at the time to be excessive.

I've commented it out until the other side of the base this trope applies is added, or we find another trope to put it under.

Anything to add?
Darthrai
06:13:07 PM Nov 24th 2015
edited by Darthrai
I'm not sure if the page even needs this example, despite the fact that I made it. It's too specific to Generation V, and it's hard to explain the other side of the argument (some found Pikachu's marketing to be appropriate since it's the series mascot?).

Currently, people seem to be bashing on Charizard, Lucario, etc. more because they have fandom worship on top of all the marketing Game Freak gives them. Do you think the current entries under Hype Backlash and Base Breaker are enough to cover the issue?
Ferot_Dreadnaught
06:51:28 PM Nov 24th 2015
An appropriately balanced Base Breaker entry has been added for 'cu, no further discussion needed.
MagBas
04:29:53 AM Nov 25th 2015
As noted in the discussion directly after this, be a Base Breaker disqualifies a character of Ensemble Dark Horse or The Scrappy status, implying that, to be a Base Breaker, the division in the fandom must be not a Vocal Minority.
Larkmarn
10:29:35 AM Nov 25th 2015
I think it has merits. "The majority likes him, but a Vocal Minority really doesn't" seems like it would qualify for the trope, if true. That said, I don't know if this vocal minority is large enough to count and the entry may overstate it.

I admit I don't exactly have my ear to the ground on the matter, but Pikachu's well liked by the Smash community at least.
MagBas
Topic
10:00:07 AM Jun 13th 2015
edited by MagBas
I am in the doubt about the divisive nature of the Base Breaker examples. Charizard in particular. Beyond this, the first Pikachu entry not implies that he is divisive.(48th place out of 600+? In a publication to "young adult males", as noted by the description?)
PDL
10:12:59 AM Jun 13th 2015
I'd remove it unless there's concrete evidence that it isn't just one person's thinking. Or make it more neutral sounding.
MagBas
05:44:11 PM Jun 24th 2015
Okay, thanks.
Larkmarn
06:28:15 AM Jun 25th 2015
Let me guess, Darthrai added that, didn't he?
Darthrai
07:35:50 AM Jun 30th 2015
edited by Darthrai
I did, four years ago. I didn't add Charizard but agree with the assessment of him as a Base Breaker.

Could I suggest re-adding them, but in less detail and with a less vitriolic tone (more neutral-sounding, as PDL suggested)? Such as:

  • Pikachu is this with the Periphery Demographic. While it's the face of the franchise and a huge cultural icon in general, it frequently finds itself glossed over by older fans in favor of more powerful and "edgy" Pokémon. Its Spotlight-Stealing Squad nature and archetypical Kid-Appeal Character traits also tend to be points of contention, along with the fact that its role as the Series Mascot is largely due to its role in the polarizing anime series.
  • Charizard, mostly due to Hype Backlash. While a very popular Pokémon, some fans (particularly those of the other starter lines) dislike the favoritism that it gets both from Game Freak and from the fanbase, to the point that it was a frequent sight in competitive battles in tiers where it was too weak to compete prior to Generation VI.

The fact is, both characters are widely-liked but also have very vocal hatedoms (same for Lucario and other Nintendo characters like Lucina and Rosalina); in my opinion, this shouldn't be ignored.

EDIT: Pikachu was actually considered a Base Breaker for a loooooooong time on this wiki, even before I joined and inflicted my personal bias. Also, these opinions are based on what I've seen in many communities (not 4chan, which seems to worship Pikachu), which may or may not be completely in line with my personal opinion.
MagBas
08:20:50 AM Jul 3rd 2015
I am pretty sure that if a character is hated/loved by a Vocal Minority he not qualifies as Base Breaker, considering that if a character qualifies as Base Breaker it not qualifies as The Scrappy or Ensemble Darkhorse. The old Pikachu example implies that Pikachu is actually popular between older fans(or at least, IGN fans.) And the Charizard example that you put now uses "from the fanbase"(about the favoritism) and "some fans".(about the haters.)
Darthrai
07:14:18 AM Jul 5th 2015
edited by Darthrai
If we use that definition, the Base Breaker trope itself doesn't seem very solid in my opinion. Probably 80% of examples on this wiki are only hated/loved by a Vocal Minority rather than actually causing a roughly 50/50 split in the fanbase, which is very difficult to tell in any case (Lucina's depiction in Smash Bros. is one of the few cases where one can make a solid argument for her being an actual Base Breaker). This also applies to Lucario, Gardevoir, Dragonite, and pretty much all the other examples on the page.

I agree that the old IGN Pikachu example shows that it's actually fairly popular with that demographic, but I probably mixed up "Base Breaker" with "not as unanimously loved as with kids/as the marketing team wants you to think, with a Vocal Minority of haters". Do we have a trope for that?

In any case, with your reasoning, I'd argue to disallow Base Breaker examples in general on work pages; labeling something as a Base Breaker is subjective even among subjective tropes. They're already disallowed on the trope page itself. I'm thinking of proposing it to the moderators, what do you think?
elkeryos
Topic
12:10:57 PM Oct 8th 2014
I don't get it. I AM french, and Tortank IS pronounced Thor-TANK, such as a tank, the english word.
Okoa
Topic
10:46:13 AM Jul 13th 2014
edited by 96.28.182.48
This gem under Unfortunate Implications:

"Mega Gardevoir's Fairy Tale Wedding Dress combined with Gardevoir's feminine appearance, Undying Loyalty to its Trainer, and the statement that Mega Evolution takes the bond between Trainer and Pokemon to the "next level" makes one wonder just what Game Freak was going for with this."

Any objections to removing that? I find this statement pretty asinine.
madgodzulcan
10:55:29 AM Jul 13th 2014
edited by 67.221.204.48
Go for it, sounds more like Does This Remind You of Anything? anyway.
SeptimusHeap
11:36:01 AM Jul 13th 2014
^^Also, it does not explain at all how it's offensive to anyone and lacks a citation which Unfortunate Implications needs.
Scardoll
Topic
12:03:51 PM Jan 1st 2014
Under Base Breaker...

  • Conkeldurr. While it's an extremely powerful and useful Pokémon (even competitively), it's generally viewed as (and possibly designed to be) extremely ugly. Its pre-evolution, Gurdurr may even be more widely hated, because it's just as hideous, if not more, than Conkeldurr, and it's a common annoyance in caves when you're looking for a rare Pokemon or have run out of repels. Not helped that it looks vaguely similar in some ways to a clown.

The clown resemblance is pretty obviously intentional. It's a visual pun on "circus strongman".
Larkmarn
01:45:53 PM Jan 1st 2014
Intentional or not, people don't like clowns very much. Could be rewritten, though.
Scardoll
03:16:22 PM Jan 1st 2014
Oh, I don't mind it being there (Even if I'm a fan of Conkeldurr.). I just think "vaguely similar" makes it sound like the clown resemblance was accidental.
Larkmarn
03:23:15 PM Jan 1st 2014
Agreed.
Larkmarn
Topic
10:17:05 AM Nov 15th 2013
edited by 156.33.241.8
I feel like the Ensemble Darkhorse needs to be cleaned, BADLY.

For one, doesn't every generation have its own ED listing? Do we even need one?

For another, it's way, way too big. And it includes starters, mascots, box legendaries, and freaking Pikachu. I'm going to cut the really egregious ones.

Any thoughts on whether non-box Legendaries should be cut? I'm thinking about Mew and Mewtwo. Also the pseudo-Legendaries... they're not pushed that hard, but due to their stats they're pretty much forced on the player.
MagBas
11:19:21 AM Nov 15th 2013
edited by 200.187.113.33
The pseudo-legendaries are not pushed in the player at all and it is extremely easy to end Gold/Silver without learn about Tyrannitar's existence.
Larkmarn
11:28:53 AM Nov 15th 2013
Alright, I'll leave those.

I also pulled Lucario, but now I'm not sure. I thought he was one of the ones that was revealed early and that his popularity came from getting his own movie (like Zoroark), but now I can't remember if he was already popular before the movie.
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