This title is weirdly specific.: Prejudiced For Pecs

Prejudiced For Pecs sounds like it should have something to do specifically with pectoral muscles. It doesn't, it's just sort of the inverse of Muscles Are Meaningless filtered through Rule of Perception. It's a weird, awkward title that wouldn't exist if tropers didn't like going for Added Alliterative Appeal.

So, new titles? Muscles Are Meaningful? Bigger Means Stronger?

edited 16th Nov '10 8:45:24 PM by Lullabee

I find the writing of this trope quite odd. It appears to take the point of view that it is absurd to expect big folks to have significant muscular strength! As a rule of thumb, large and muscular people are strong in Real Life — so in fictional works, Willing Suspension of Disbelief is not a problem.

If there is a trope here, it is that stronger characters are expected to be drawn with bigger muscles — related to the Rule of Perception. (EDIT that's Heroic Build, or similar.): stating it as characters with bigger muscles are "weirdly" expected to be stronger is just strange. Extreme exceptions to "big is strong" are the ones requiring a Willing Suspension of Disbelief: Waif-Fu and the like.

I think the root problem here is it is a wrestling trope. In that specialised world a wrestler with a compact frame can make better use of equal muscle bulk in some important match situations. Trying to extend that to general fiction doesn't work. Possibly there is a point there about some strong people have wiry muscles rather than bulky ones — but that point is not made clearly..

I'd suggest ditching non-wrestling examples — maybe turn it into one of our Useful Notes or something. We've had this problem before: wrestling is a very special genre all of its own, one that doesn't fit in well to the general scheme of things.

edited 17th Nov '10 4:49:59 AM by Camacan

I thought it was going to be the spear counterpart to Buxom Is Better. Would Top-Heavy Guy be this one? Or possibly Heroic Build?

edited 16th Nov '10 9:05:58 PM by Deboss

I'd support this becoming a wrestling only trope. Only the last paragraph makes sense to me as a trope: The biggest wrestlers are promoted as the biggest threat in the ring, and rise in rank much quicker and with greater ease than smaller wrestlers. I wouldn't mind seeing the preceding text cut. Bigger Gets Top Billing might be a more accurate name.

Why should anything be medium specific if it's not constricted by the medium itself? If it's about the bigger guys being given a lot more hype, I'd call it Bigger Is Badder.

Okay, reading the trope? This description needs a complete rewrite. Half of it is Examples In The Description, and if it's about characters, why the hell is there a Titanic quote at the top? Isn't this just Bigger Is Better.

I moved all the examples that were cluttering up the description down. There honestly doesn't seem to be much in the way of trope here. I think it would be best just to cut it and send it back to YKTTW.

edited 17th Nov '10 12:05:52 AM by Deboss

I added the paragraph about Prof Wrestling back, though not without omitting examples from that paragraph first. I think it is valid as a generalized statement about how the trope is applied to a particular medium.

I agree that it could be sent back to YKTTW. As far as applying "hype" to mediums other than wrestling, maybe it could focus on how really big characters are portrayed as the top contenders in any competition? This shows up a lot in cartoons, though the trope might already exist elsewhere.

Associating larger creatures with greater strength isn't just a stereotype, it's common sense, even if it isn't always applicable. Trying to build that into a trope by itself would be silly, in my opinion.

edited 17th Nov '10 1:21:18 AM by Rhatahema

isn't this were part of the logic from Mighty Glacier and Lightning Bruiser come from?

edited 17th Nov '10 1:48:23 AM by GiantSpaceChinchilla

I think so. The more I mull it over, the more I think it's supposed to be a subtrope of Bigger Is Better but in combat or The Big Guy is supposed to be intimidating. It just doesn't seem to be set up well.

I vote for Bigger Means Stronger myself, as that's generally the gist of what the trope is about.

Yeah, let's call it Bigger Means Stronger. Seems like a no-brainer.

Arise Thread Long Since Dead.

Single Prop Crowner Here

Bump for more votes.

It's not just about about bigger characters characters being stronger. It's also about big characters doing things like being stealthy, doing detective work, or doing lots of acrobatic moves also hurting the willing suspension of disbelief. Okay, the stealth part is mildly justified.

And it is true that in real life, people with body building like frames are strong, but are often not as strong as athletes who are the same size but don't look as bulky. So the audience expects the character with the biggest muscles to be the strongest, disregarding things like the other guy's muscles may be just as big, just slightly obscured by fat, or clothing, or that he may have a higher density of fibers in his "smaller" biceps.

Or the muscles that matter for the occasion are actually the same size, but even though the pectorals are mostly unrelated to say, squatting or dead lifting, the audience will still want the character with the bigger pecs to be stronger. People in industrial countries are largely non athletes so they really can't be expected to understand these things.

Adding in Super Hero comics and this trope is even more clear than it is in wrestling. No amount of muscle should allow Superman or Spider-man to do what they do, but its called Super-Strength for a reason. Muscles are just icing on the cake. Yet all the strongest characters in the Spider-man comics will be drawn huge, even though their brands of super strength are almost always unrelated to muscle size. Carnage and Anti-venom being skinnier but stronger than Spider-man are an exception.

Similarly, us comic book readers want a muscular Superman. Does it really matter how big he is, given his solar biomatrix powers? Not at all but he's Superman, we demand muscles! On the flip side, we don't want a super muscular fantastic four. Only one of them has powers related to strength and he's made of rock. There is no real reason why Invisible Woman and Human Torch can't spend all day in the gym and get ripped, but draw them like that and watch the complaints come in. "Sue is a scientist without super strength. Johnny is a mechanic without Super strength! Cut down on the abs and shrink their pecs!"

I say the trope title is fine and describes the trope just fine once you read the description. I could rewrite it though, just tell me what's wrong.

edited 20th Jul '11 7:56:13 AM by Cider

I don't think "prejudiced" is the right word. It's more of an expectation than a prejudice (especially once you look beyond professional wrestling). And "pecs" is slangy and overly specific. It's not about pecs, it's about muscles. Big Muscles Are Expected.

Crowner seems done. And I'm in favor of Big Muscles Are Useful or Muscles Are Meaningful or something like that.

EDIT: Oh, and that second one is already an alt title. We could just do a swap.

edited 17th Jul '11 3:49:57 PM by Discar

Edited description a little. I also cut the quotes, since they had very little to do with the trope.

I still say just swap for Muscles Are Meaningful.

Anybody have a problem if I just swap for Muscles Are Meaningful?

Swapped, and wicks fixed. Hollering for a lock.