Dreams and Daydreams - would this get too complicated?

As a lot of you know because I've been talking about it far too often, I'm planning a webcomic about a fat, neurotic Occidental Otaku who daydreams about being a Magical Girl Warrior, exploring a picturesque Wish-Fulfillment world of her own design, and fighting evil (killing a lot of her asshole classmates in the process).

My original plan was to have the story structured a lot like The Secret Life of Walter Mitty, with half the story focused the protagonist going through her boring, routine-driven life and the other half focusing on her surreal Power Fantasies.

However, I had the idea of including her nightmares, in which (still in character) she'd fight off the personifications of her insecurities and fight her way through a Dark World version of her fantasy land.

It seemed simple enough... until I started writing a more complex plot synopsis, and found out that it read like something an untreated schizophrenic would dream up.

This is my first work of fiction, so I'm still fairly new to keeping multiple plot lines going. I just have no idea how to balance Real Life, her daydreams, and her Dream Sequences - which are all wildly different from each other and have their own story lines - in a way that makes any kind of sense.

So should I stick to daydreams, or just keep trying to find a way to include the Dream Sequences?

Edited by Wheezy on Nov 1st 2022 at 1:44:07 PM

My suggestion would be to manage Dreams and Daydreams as part of the main storyline, then slowly reveal their true nature. It would make a good twist in the story, as many events that were previously taken as real were just created by the character's imagination.

Or you can always leave the dream / reality boundaries as ambiguous as possible, then give the reader a Mind Screw.

If you make it unclear whether or not the first day dreams are reality or not, that would be a good way to draw the readers in.that way, when you enter the nightmare realm the reader has more emotional involvement with the character, because they don't know how real it is. in the middle part, maybe make it more clear what is going on, and what's really at stake: her sanity and her ability to become a more mature person. Make it clear that even if she doesn't physically die if she fails in her dreams, that her failure is still a very real threat because of what it means for her as a functional person. The nightmares need to carry weight in the plot line, so that readers care about whether or not she wins.

Blurring the boundaries between dreams and reality was actually one of my first ideas, but I scrapped it because - especially with my partially Kon-inspired art style - that would make it too much like Paprika.

I was planning on starting the story with an elaborate (as elaborate as my drawing skills will allow, anyway) daydream sequence, then cutting to "real life" to reveal that the protagonist was dreaming it all up, but that wouldn't last more than a chapter.

Also, the daydream sequences were supposed to be an Affectionate Parody of common fantasy anime and sue tropes (especially Her Code Name Was "Mary Sue"), and I that may or may not work as well if it's not obvious that the main character is dreaming it all up.

I still might go with that approach, though.

edited 21st Jul '10 4:23:18 PM by Wheezy

Oh I was thinking of it only lasting a chapter too, just enough to make the readers want more day dream stuff. That way when you put them into the nightmare world, they are looking for and expecting the happy(ish) daydream. so when you pull the rug out form under their feet with the scary monsters and the protagonist in real danger, they feel what your character feels.

Also, I need a bit of help with her character's backstory. The one that I currently have was that the protagonist originally created her in childhood as a Spaceman Spiff-style alter ego.

...Which means that we now have Real life, daydreams, nighmare sequences, and flashbacks that contain daydreams. Five continuities.

URGH.

Also, since said magical girl is a princess, of course, I was considering having the Story Within a Story play out in one of two ways:

1. She starts out as an ordinary Magical Girl Warrior, and as the protagonist loses it over the course of the story, she becomes increasingly power-mad and giddily sociopathic, aspiring not only to fight evil, but to Take Over the World and reshape it as an egopolis. Or...

2. She starts out the story having already done that, and she has to fight off flanderized versions of the people she dislikes in Real Life (and, in the nightmare sequences - Demonic Invaders) who are threatening her control over the Dream World.

edited 21st Jul '10 8:13:38 PM by Wheezy

The first option carries more depth. The second is a little crap sack/saccharine world for my tastes. I like the idea of creator back story being spaceman spiff like. Her own origins can probably be pretty generic, boring and repetitive, which allows her to retreat to her mind. (On a side note, have you ever read Yu+Me Dream? It's a little bit like what you are talking about, at least at the very beginning.)

You could use different styles of font or drawing (I forget if this is drawn or not?) to show the shift between day dream and real world, and use the same style for daydream and nightdream—but make the nightdreams a little more colorful and curly. When the nightdreams become nightmares instead, you could shift the style a little more to make it darker— possibly Deliberately Monochrome? In terms of flashbacks, unless they are recent flashbacks, you could just make it obvious through the youth of the characters. Also, her back story could involve some violence or trauma (abuse and sexual molestation are popular right now, but it could be something simpler like childhood friend abandonment, puppy who died unexpectedly, etc), which is what made Princess Spiff necessary for her to retreat to.

edited 21st Jul '10 8:06:42 PM by Amarys

"Also, her back story could involve some violence or trauma (abuse and sexual molestation are popular right now, but it could be something simpler like childhood friend abandonment, puppy who died unexpectedly, etc), which is what made Princess Spiff necessary for her to retreat to."

Seconding that, though losing a friend or a puppy sounds too mild to me. That serious a level of fantasy, I'm thinking either she's developing a psychotic disorder or has had very serious trauma. And the latter works better for the 'accepting that it isn't real' bit, since psychosis is mostly biologically based (meaning you can't really think/feel your way out of it).

To answer those in order:

The entire comic will be Deliberately Monochrome, because I want the series to look like a OneManga scan instead of your typical photoshop-polished webcomic. Even if I had the tools, time, and CG skill to color it, I really wouldn't want to.

However, the dream/daydream sequences will be shown via Art Shift.

My main style of drawing is heavily inspired by Naoki Urasawa (see the page image for Cast of Snowflakes), so the Real Life sections will be drawn in my usual style. However, since the protagonist is an anime fangirl, the daydream/nightmare sections will be drawn in a more typical animesque style. Also, the distinction between daydreams and nightmares will be fairly obvious.

I'll post samples of the concept art in not too long.

The flashbacks will go back five years. Our protagonist is a 17-year old high school senior in the main plot, and a 12-year old middle schooler in the flashbacks.

As for her backstory, her whole life has been pretty unpleasant, but not to the level of Deus Angst Machina or Abusive Parents.

She's lived her entire life in a painfully dull North Carolina exurb with her apathetic parents (in a tract house that could be called Trash of the Titans), has been an overweight and plain-looking Extreme Doormat since childhood, and was pretty much used as a punching bag throughout school - even at 17, her life doesn't look like it's going to improve much in the foreseeable future.

This drives most of the story.

First of all, it's the reason her seemingly innocent Magical Girl fantasies get so damn violent.

It's also the reason she hates herself. One of the things that causes her to escape into her sueish alter-ego is how much she despises her looks and personality. Plus, among the demons that appear in her nightmares are Anxiety, Despair, Self-Loathing, and at the height of her Sanity Slippage, Reality itself.

As a side note, this story is extremely hard to summarize. I'd like to write a pitch for it, but I have no idea where to start.

Edited by Wheezy on Nov 1st 2022 at 1:46:33 PM

Start with "The protagonist has lived her entire life in...and end with Reality itself." that is actually a pretty darn good pitch. But also have come concept art yes please!

I don't think it sounds like she really has enough Angst to explain such a serious psychological issue, personally. I think she needs to have been abused by someone. However, it need not be her parents, if you want to make it less cliche. It could be a friend of the family, a teacher, a classmate, a sibling...

I suppose, by this point, I might as well make this the official thread for this project. All updates relating to it will be posted here.

A quick sketch of our protagonist.◊

And a sketch dump for her alter ego, whose design I obviously haven't finished yet.◊

I'll need a plot consultant/editor and an inker for this project, so if anyone is good at either, that would help.

edited 22nd Jul '10 2:51:31 PM by Wheezy

I can definitely be an amateurish editor, at least until you take too long to update/my own project consumes my attention/I have a baby. I looked at the two concept arts. look good; I would add some distinguishing feature to link Ego and Alter-ego (do they have names?). For example, fatty has freckles...maybe they could become cute freckles on Alter-ego (I know the whole point is self-loathing, but...)

edited 22nd Jul '10 10:26:26 PM by Amarys

Look at their hairstyles.

The protagonist is Laurie Donovan.

The alter-ego is Ami.

edited 23rd Jul '10 10:55:46 AM by Wheezy

Oh did see the hairstyles thing. I guess I was looking for a few more similarities, since Lauri's hair style isn't all that "poppy" (which makes sense for her character). Is there a transformation sequence?

edited 23rd Jul '10 11:26:52 AM by Amarys

No. The story (until Laurie starts losing it later on) is structured like The Secret Life of Walter Mitty, with Laurie telling the Story Within a Story as she goes through her boring life. Her daydream world is just a Happy Place that she secretly drifts off to whenever she's bored (or whenever she's having an Indulgent Fantasy Segue).

It's an RPG Anime verse (loosely based on her Real Life hometown) where every real life character (and I mean every real life character) plays an in-universe role - kind of like Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi. It has it's own plot, but I'm out of computer time and will get to that later.

edited 23rd Jul '10 11:55:49 AM by Wheezy

Ok gotcha.

Too bad, I <3 transformation sequences. can't wait to hear more!

I don't think it sounds like she really has enough Angst to explain such a serious psychological issue, personally. I think she needs to have been abused by someone. However, it need not be her parents, if you want to make it less cliche. It could be a friend of the family, a teacher, a classmate, a sibling...

I missed this post somehow. I did say she was used as a punching bag throughout school. In fact, I was planning on having the first flashback be of one of her middle school bullies shoving her face-first into a puddle then running off laughing, triggering her first Indulgent Fantasy Segue.

Also, most people have power fantasies at some point, and plenty of people with less angst than Laurie become obsessed with them to the point where it negatively affects their mental health. Just look at any Fan Dumb for proof of that. It's not as connected with abuse as fiction usually says it is.

edited 26th Jul '10 1:55:59 AM by Wheezy

New Ami design.◊

Yes, it really did take that long.

And I know my drawings are never clean, but that's something a decent inker, or a light box, should easily fix.

edited 28th Jul '10 4:43:52 PM by Wheezy

Oh much better! I'm glad you took the freckles idea into account.

So here's another idea: wiht the flashbacks, let there not be a clear segue form real world to fake world, at least in the very first scene. Like, Laurie picks herself up out of the puddle as Ami. she swears revenge or threatens the evil doers (or something). And then, when you zoom out a bit, the reader sees that we are no longer in the real world.

Meh.◊

She's not as wide here as in her other renditions. I'll fix that next time.

Also, as a side result of drawing this, I now hate hoodies and anyone who wears them.

BTW: Yes she does have other expressions, but the way round faces change shape when smiling or opening the mouth makes emotions harder to realistically draw than on thin people - so I usually draw her looking blank. I'll probably draw an emotion chart for her soon, but I have other characters to work on.

EDIT: Fuck, I forgot to clean up the face in photoshop. Oh well.

edited 2nd Aug '10 4:39:27 PM by Wheezy

I like your character designs. Also, I had an idea vaguely like this except it was where a somewhat cute but odd girl who didn't stand out had odd if somewhat mundane fantasies while her trashy borderline Parody Sue personality trashed her life.

Which was actually the least messed up part of it, even aside from the whole Gainax ending and the way I segued it into a for-the-lulz for-my-eyes-only Kingdom Hearts crossover. Your idea is much better.

Also— please don't take this as a complaint or anything, as I suspect you did so on purpose, but I am somewhat fonder of the designs for Laurie than of Ami. Ami just seems...off, and it seems like the design rather than the art. Also, I know media-braindrained youths would decide otherwise, but weight and all, Laurie's kind of cute.

Long story short, keep at it! Also, it may be just me, but the current angst level seems fine. I mean, people who've gone through a lot less have gotten a lot more messed up.

edited 2nd Aug '10 4:57:14 PM by voiderofwarranties

So...

I'm having a bit of trouble with the parallels between Real Life and the Fantasy sections.

I've already established that the fantasy world will be loosely based on the real world, but the specifics are evading me badly.

I know Laurie's house will be replaced by a Floating Castle, her high school will become a Supervillain Lair, and the local big-box store will be a RPG-esque shop, but I don't have much else figured out.

Well, if your floating castle theme sticks, think about more minor details: cobblestone streets, the grocery store is the freezing arctic (or a paradise of food) subway trains or buses become flying vehicles or large animals, famous comic book characters are running aorund in the background (and they all know and like Ami). Take a day or two in your or Laurie's normal routine and "translate" it into Ami's world.

And two last questions:

Would it be more fun to stick to the "RPG Verse fantasy world" for the entire series, or make Laurie's daydreams jump through multiple genres like Abenobashi? (I'm leaning toward the first option, though, since that's what I've planned up to this point.)

Also, since I'm redesigning Ami to be more of a fantasy warrior than a Sailor Moon-style Magical Girl, should I go with a sword or Energy Attacks? Or both?