Debate your controversial anime opinions

Someone on the 'Unpopular Anime Opinions' thread suggested that debates on anime opinions be carried out in a seperate thread. So, out of respect for that thread's creator, here is a thread to debate the controversial anime opinions we have. I hope that when discussions on other anime threads turn into debates, that they can be taken here rather than derailing the original topic. Here are some controversial anime opinions that I have expressed that have ended up blooming into debates...

• For the most part, Light was right to do what he did.
• Frieza does not belong on the Complete Monster page.
• It is not exactly wrong to agree with Sensui and other anime characters bent on detroying humanity due to the fact that Humans Are Bastards.

I see a common thread...

Ignoring those three entirely, I'm going to say Lelouch should have been more of a dick if they wanted me to buy the redemption equals death thing. I just didn't see much wrong with what he was doing. Sure, he wasn't your typical white knight protagonist, but he just wasn't really that bad. And he should have been in order to make the point.

I think killing off millions of people deserves some hate. More than that though, I was just really confused by the end. Why does Lelouch do such weird things. That's pretty much why the ending was more of a Mind Screwdriver than anything else for me.

Things derailed fast in R2 and really went over the cliff when the Black Knights went screwy, Wall Banger after Wall Banger.

That was Schneizel, wasn't it? Or are you referring to the very end where he's going out of his way to be eeeeeeevil?

R2 was a pretty good season in terms turning everything up to eleven and staying faithful to the original feel of the series.

... Just saying.

• I see a common thread...

I like a lot of villains and I find myself sympathising (if not empathising) with some of them. Doesn't mean that I think they are misunderstood because they are 'SOOOOOOOO CUTE'. Plus Sensui and Frieza are NOT my types.

• R2 was a pretty good season in terms turning everything up to eleven and staying faithful to the original feel of the series. ... Just saying.

None of that! Don't be meek about expressing your opinions here.

edited 19th Oct '10 5:37:14 AM by emperorzaige

For the most part, Light was right to do what he did.

If you honestly thought Light really had a chance at "making the world a better place", you're as foolish as he was. And I fail to see how trying to become dictator of the entire planet and silencing all opposition is "right" in any way, shape, or form.

Frieza does not belong on the Complete Monster page.

Complete Monster = pure evil. When has Freeza been ANYTHING but evil?

It is not exactly wrong to agree with Sensui and other anime characters bent on detroying humanity due to the fact that Humans Are Bastards.

OK, if you honestly believe that Humans Are Bastards and humanity should be wiped out, then why are you still here? Shouldn't you have killed yourself in support of your ideals?

edited 19th Oct '10 7:14:26 AM by ManwiththePlan

My question is this: what are humans bastards in comparison to? What, exactly, about humans means that they deserve to all be wiped out?

I'm going to say Lelouch should have been more of a dick

Personally, I always thought Lelouch's biggest issues wasn't that he was a dick sometimes. The problem wasn't that he killed people that got in the way of his plans, it's that he was so focused on his goal he didn't even consider who would get in the way. The fact he was so casually unthinking of collatoral damage bothered me more than him going around kicking puppies would, because Lelouch was supposed to be the smart one. The SAZ incident was something of character development for him in terms of this, if one that came too late. Then again, did he give a damn about anyone who was hurt be FLEIJA aside from Nunnally?

...That said, it's a perfectly valid character flaw that's fun to look at. But it is a flaw.

Lelouch wasn't pure evil, nor was he by any stretch of the word good. He was just doing what he thought needed to be done. Were there other ways? Possibly? Did his work? Yes, it did. Hopefully...

edited 19th Oct '10 9:27:28 AM by KSPAM

My question is this: what are humans bastards in comparison to? What, exactly, about humans means that they deserve to all be wiped out?

They're being compared to the ideal humanity—you know, the humans who aren't bastards.

Not sure I agree with the sentiment, just wanted to answer the question.

edited 19th Oct '10 9:45:15 AM by Edmond_Dantes

That's what I was afraid of; so humans need to be exterminated because they aren't as good as hypotheticals that don't exist. My thing is, "all humans deserve death because they're horrible" is a self-contradicting paradox.

If all humans are so terrible that anything done to them is justified, then anything humans do to each other is justified. And if anything humans do to each other is justified, then nothing they do is wrong. And if nothing they do is wrong, then they're not terrible at all, they're good people, even the ones who kill others. But if they're good people, then horrible things done to them would be a terrible sin. Repeat at step 1.

Does that mean Rousseau Was Right?

Okay, here's mine:

- Ranma is not a jerk, Akane is not a bitch, and there were no Unfortunate Implications in the Tsubasa Kuranai episode.

- Anime does not "reinforce the patriarchy" nor is (much of) it sexist.

- Konata is a real person who I delusionally believe totally loves me forget you heard that. Konata used the computer when I wasn't looking.

edited 19th Oct '10 10:19:23 AM by Edmond_Dantes

•For the most part, Light was right to do what he did.

If you say to people "If you do X, I will hit you with a stick" they won't stop wanting to do X, they will look for a way to do X without getting hit. I'd say most criminals don't expect to be caught, the fact the existence of the death penalty in some countries doesn't stop crimes which are punished by the death penalty from happening proves that beautifully.

Here's a fun fact: Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia still had crime. In fact, they had higher crime rates than modern America.

Take that as you will.

Afaik countries with the death penalty have higher murder rates in general, though correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation, of course.

Personally, I always thought Lelouch's biggest issues wasn't that he was a dick sometimes. The problem wasn't that he killed people that got in the way of his plans, it's that he was so focused on his goal he didn't even consider who would get in the way. The fact he was so casually unthinking of collatoral damage bothered me more than him going around kicking puppies would, because Lelouch was supposed to be the smart one. The SAZ incident was something of character development for him in terms of this, if one that came too late. Then again, did he give a damn about anyone who was hurt be FLEIJA aside from Nunnally?

The way I see it, that happened very late in the show and was a single event. I'm speaking more of lying to your troops and manipulating them. I don't really find this to be a bad thing, yet I think I'm supposed to. Lelouch could be thoughtless, but I don't really think it's possible for him to really recognize the consequences of everything. It simply leads me to the conclusion that the Code Geass writers failed at the point they were trying to make with him. I want to think he was doing morally objectionable things for good goals, but it seemed more practical and necessary than anything else.

Don't forget that he probably caused some civilian casualties during the final battle of the first season, places the life of people he personally cares about (especially Nunnally) above those of Mooks, kills children during his battle with the Geass Cult, etc.

I'm speaking more of lying to your troops and manipulating them. I don't really find this to be a bad thing, yet I think I'm supposed to.

...Obviously a Your Mileage May Vary thing.

Don't forget that he probably caused some civilian casualties during the final battle of the first season, places the life of people he personally cares about (especially Nunnally) above those of Mooks, kills children during his battle with the Geass Cult, etc.

Civilian casualties occur frequently, such as in the bombing of a city. Civilians have even been deliberately targeted in order to increase opposition to the war in real life. Valuing characters over mooks is hardly rare, and it would in fact make him seem worse to do otherwise. And during the Geass Cult thing, wasn't he basically killing Rolos? Rolo was not exactly a well balanced individual. While killing children is obviously horrible and something I find it difficult to agree with, it's a legitimate military target. It makes me think of calling Winston Churchill evil for not evacuating Canterbury before it was bombed.

And what about it may vary, that some people see it as terrible? Or that it wasn't supposed to seem that way?

Pretty much any fictional race saying Humans Are Bastards are just as much of a bunch of bastards if not much more.

I like Sensui, but if he were an actual person, I'd be shitting myself in my basement right now. I do think he's misguided like whoa, in that humans have both a good and evil inclination (as do demons). Black-and-White Morality hindered him in that regard.

His ideals do NOT stop him from being a hypocritical Jerkass, but, the way I see it, his death kind of gives you an insight into why he became as bad as he did. Sensui ultimately became villainous because he treated every damn thing as such Serious Business that he really began to loathe himself for being unable to live up to such impossible standards, especially after the Black Black Club incident, hence why he decided to take all of humanity with him (representing his humanity, which he probably wanted to jettison the whole time to either become a god or, later, a demon). Long story short: a combo of being deadly serious and god-moding makes you a nutjob. And being a Misanthrope Supreme was probably sort of a cover for deeper issues and his own emotional weakness. Also, Itsuki aided and abetted his madness and hatred of humanity by manipulating his weak emotions.

Coincidentally, Yusuke's completely opposite personality from Sensui's keeps him as a good guy, even after he's awakened as a demon. Probably because he's Book Dumb, has more emotional strength growing up how he did, and has a much easier time accepting things.

I agree with emperorzaige about liking Sensui, but I think s/he takes it too far and ignores his massive flaws. The reason I like him is because he's a massive cautionary tale, especially for people like me who tend to be way too zealous about most of their opinions.

edited 19th Oct '10 1:24:05 PM by SirPsychoSexy

^ Exactly that. That is how I view Sensui. Tragic, perhaps, but definitely in the wrong.