Pokémon anime

Team Rocket (once again) appear to be stealing the show from the heroes as more interesting rivals for Team Flare. Looks like a Deconstruction of their usual Unknown Rival formula, with them slowly but surely forcing the rivalling villains to take them seriously.

I like this happy medium XY often has for TR, ie. clownish Villainous Underdogs that can struggle and connive their way up to being a genuine threat. It's the sympathy value and the compelling face-offs in one. "A Frenzied Factory Fiasco's" become one of my top eps altogether from Meowth finally getting a palpable face-off against Pikachu.

edited 11th Feb '16 9:25:56 AM by Psi001

They were effective Team Plasma rivals too.

So they aren't as competent as they were in Best Wishes, but they can still be more badass then they've been in...every other season. Is that what you are saying?

Cause if that's so, I rather like things that way as well. A nice happy medium. I kinda wish they'd been portrayed this way from the get-go.

I haven't seen all of XY but it does seem that (it's maybe on par with how they were in their very first Kanto episode, but with a lot more Villainous Valor present due to having their full personalities).

edited 11th Feb '16 3:05:01 PM by Psi001

They're more similar to the way they were in DP. They still get defeated easily by Ash and the other main characters, but can occasionally put up a decent fight against other characters or villains.

Admittedly some episodes I seen haven't dodged the whole cheap 'the heroes dodge/precede every single attack' method. Team Rocket always tend to look stronger at the start of each season when most of the Pokemon are rookies (and Pikachu takes his obligatory power nerf), then as they evolve, the trio's formula starts to become lazier. Compare Braixen to when even Meowth could oppose it as a Fennekin.

edited 11th Feb '16 3:43:15 PM by Psi001

Ooka: EDIT: Actually, separate folders for Supporting characters for Seasons 17 & 18 vs 19 and later would be a good idea.

And the only qualifier on Trope entries is "are they legit?" A preponderance of OS entries merely means First Installment Wins.

edited 11th Feb '16 4:05:30 PM by DonaldthePotholer

they're shown to be competent in XY that they know not to mess with Ash's team if they have bigger plans (i.e. in the power plant ep they were afraid of Ash coming)

I think it was also that, early on at least, there was more use of the Brains Evil, Brawn Good mentality, with Team Rocket being more Crazy-Prepared and strategic enough to get the upper hand when raw battle power failed.

As said this is why I liked "Factory Fiasco", in most previous Meowth vs Pikachu episodes, Meowth was so pitiful they usually turned into a Go-Karting with Bowser story very quickly (eg. Bound For Trouble), here not only is Meowth more resilient against Pikachu, but he is sneaky and resourceful enough to keep him distracted the whole episode. Even in their short battle, he is clever enough to get in some dirty tactics and even a Curb-Stomp Cushion. It felt more like Pikachu was actually challenged, or at least forced to be more skilful in his power than just "Thundershock now!".

edited 12th Feb '16 4:28:03 AM by Psi001

It's no secret that the anime has Ash go around helping people. On a few occasions, he's even stated that that's more important than achieving his own goals. So, with that in mind, how many people would you say owe Ash a debt or two?

Including Pokemon?

Yes

A great many people and I don't think Ash would mind unpaid debt.

Hasn't he outright saved the entire world on several occasions?

Then again I'm pretty sure Team Rocket helped him on some of those occasions, so what does that mean?

edited 13th Feb '16 6:40:01 PM by Psi001

That they should stop fucking being Team Rocket members and just do something else, since they are so good at so many things besides being criminals. That's what.

The thing is Team Rocket ultimately love being evil too much. Even some of their best Pet the Dog moments are set up in a way they still get to troll the heroes (e.g. Ignorance is Blissey).

That's true.

I mean, I guess it's important to love your work, but being actually good at it (especially when they seem to be good at everything but thieving) would make at least a bit of sense.

I suppose that's just how it is.

Perhaps when Giovanni disbands Team Rocket altogether after Ash beats him or something like that. One of the things that keeps the trio from leaving Team Rocket altogether is their loyalty to the Boss. They really want Giovanni's approval even when Giovanni makes it clear that he would rather have them Reassigned to Antarctica or used as bait for bigger fish to fry. If you remove Giovanni out of the equations, the trio would have no one to steal for, no boss to please, no promotion to relish. They might try to continue Team Rocket on their own to honor Giovanni, but I doubt they know what to do with the Pokémon they have stolen since the normal routine is delivering it to the Boss.

edited 14th Feb '16 7:44:27 PM by Shadao

Let's face it, if Team Rocket weren't so gleeful and persistent about being bad guys, Ash and co's treatment of them would seem outright barbaric.

I do wonder how an actual finale to Pokemon would turn out however. I could easily see it being an And the Adventure Continues outcome, though they make Team Rocket so loveable, I don't see them not giving them a Happy Ending if otherwise. They do seem to genuinely like or at least respect Pikachu despite their rivalry after all.

edited 14th Feb '16 8:20:53 PM by Psi001

The new Mythical Pokemon was officially revealed. Its name is Magearna.

https://twitter.com/Pokemon/status/699068347485282308

https://twitter.com/Pokemon/status/699069291174326273

Given how far away they are from Kanto at the moment, and how I don't see future generations going to Japan aside from Remakes, if and when they do have a Grand Finale I'd envision that there'd just be a declaration that Team Rocket was rounded up and disbanded; the Third Line of the final Tournament Arc could be our Terrible Trio trying to confirm these "rumors". Alternately, there would be just some summary mentions by Professor Oak and maybe one or two others. (Or those could be the "rumors" that JJ&M would try to dispel.) Anticlimax? Sure. But Team Rocket proper hasn't had any relevance in the Franchise proper since the Gen 2 remakes, the Anime's "Operation Tempest" notwithstanding: There, the writers tried to write in a finale for Rocket as a faction in Best Wishes but the removal got overruled.

And, counter to 's point, outside of "Operation Tempest", Giovanni wasn't a Big Bad but rather a Greater-Scope Villain, which means that a Non-Protagonist Resolver (e.g. Lance, Steven, and/or Cynthia) would be best suited for the job. Though, granted, I would like to see some of Ash's former companions be part of that effort, partly so that they could get an Offscreen Moment of Awesome,^note though unless it's actually shown, cue the Fanfics, and partly so that said former companions have an ironclad reason for missing Ash's moment of triumph. Patching a potential Plot Hole, in other words.

No, if Giovanni is to be defeated by anyone, it is someone that he has personally underestimated and someone who is antithesis of him. And what better way of defeat and humiliation is there for Giovanni than to be defeated by a young boy from Pallet Town? Or a Pokémon he thought he had under control? Really, all he needs to do is get up from that chair and take full reigns as the Big Bad of the Pokémon. Kinda like Thanos if you think about it.

edited 14th Feb '16 11:42:23 PM by Shadao

By that logic, a 8-9 year old boy from Hoenn would work just as well. In fact, my original thought was that the Contrived Coincidence that put some of Ash's companions in the battle of Silph Tower was Max battling Misty for the Cascade Badge while May and Dawn were at a contest in Saffron when the attack began.

In all seriousness, what law says that a story with a Hero must have a Big Bad? In fact, we have a Trope where that is explicitly not the case.

Besides, the chief difficulty is in creating a Contrived Coincidence for Ash to return to Kanto just as the attack began. Maybe it's not so difficult, but, considering Ash's proper quest, either it would have to be a Post-Climax Confrontation (if it was right after Ash won a Tournament) or be a prelude to a return to the Indigo Plateau for a victory run there. Both would A: Smack blatantly of The Stations of the Canon and B: require either the reintroduction of OS characters or have some further coincidence of writing them out, possibly including invoking The Worf Effect in passing and, if the latter path was used, would require invoking Same Character, But Different for Misty, if not the other Gym Leaders (including Brock) (in addition to The Other Darrin in Japan for all but Brock.)

And don't say "but Ash could just defeat Giovanni in Kalos". It doesn't work that way: A: Kanto's Giovanni's home turf, not Kalos. And B: unlike the dropped ball in Best Wishes, Team Flare is active in Kalos. And on that point, whether or not Ash is strong/skilled enough to play a significant role in defeating Team Flare, much less the Lead, is a highly contentious debate even considering his recent Levels. To suggest that Ash could take Lead against Giovanni would make Rocket equal to Flare at best. EDIT: And if Giovanni is in Kalos, the two teams could just as easily overpower each other. How would that make Ash's victory look?

edited 15th Feb '16 5:31:36 PM by DonaldthePotholer

This may have been already noted, but Magearna's dress is designed like a Poke Ball!

When the story has villains working for a boss. And said boss is the reason why folks like Jessie, James and Meowth continue to persist a goal pretty much doomed to fail every episode. And yes, a 8-9 year old Hoenn boy would be a fitting defeat for Giovanni... if said boy was highly developed as a character and has bigger reasons to go after Team Rocket than Ash (who faced over 900+ episodes of dealing with the Trio plus all of the other crimes that the Rocket organization has committed).

That's why I mentioned Giovanni's other possible humiliating defeat: being Hoist by His Own Petard due to his arrogance of controlling a powerful Pokémon like say Mewtwo. And really, what Black and White shows us is that you don't need to worry about the home turf or a regional evil team to somehow get Giovanni and Ash facing each other in a climatic showdown. All you need is the right motive for either side.

One funny idea I had was that the Team Rocket trio actually succeeded in capturing Pikachu and delivering him to the Giovanni but by doing so, they inadvertently brought Ash (and the authorities) to the Rocket HQ's doorstep. And naturally, Ash would not have any of it and confronts Giovanni not just for the kidnapping of his friend, but also the many crimes he has committed. And it leads to Giovanni's downfall and subsequently the disbandment of Team Rocket. So the trio ended up destroying the entire organization that they worked for by actually being successful in completing their goal.

Yes, many people have noted that. Not surprising considering that it's a man-made Pokémon. Really want to see this Azoth Kingdom they have going. I wouldn't be surprised if that is what the region is being hinted at in X and Y.

edited 15th Feb '16 6:05:23 PM by Shadao