During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Not a problem. I just want to make it clear where I'm coming from as well.
I do feel that, though the books are separate from the films, which I realize, if someone in the books is not as heinous as someone in a film marketed extensively towards children, then they shouldn't count.
I am not familiar with Montross.
For Palpatine, I said many times that he counts. Maybe he should be mentioned on the first page, because he keeps popping out even though, this thread made it clear that he qualifies.
Nihilus? I am in favor of allowing him, but I might listen to the arguments against.
Even if the films are for kids I think that Palpatine and Tarkin have actions that are so insanely psychotic that it eclipsed a ton. If chume was in a film I would agree but the separate media..:I mean palpatine is responsible for genocide. So is Tarkin. I think that's a scale that disqualifies solid examples from different works ok the same verse
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The films are not for kids actually. And if they would be, the actions of those guys would rate the film PG.
@6211 OK, cool, that was the impression I got from what I read. Re:Sauron, you got my 'vote' now, it that means anything. I know you prefer arguments to votes, but I cannot think of anything to say that has not already been said.
The films are rated PG - PG-13 in the US, for what it's worth. That's what passes for 'kid's film' in the US.
Is it weird that if we had to chop one of either Sidious or Tarkin, I'd rather chop Sidious? There's a couple remote All There in the Manual sources that imply he at least thinks he's the good guy here and genuinely believes the Sith would run the Galaxy better than the Republic.
And Word of God actually has said they're for kids, though it might be worth mentioning he only said that after he was accused of writing annoying Kid Appeal Characters.
edited 28th Dec '12 3:02:28 PM by HamburgerTime
We already discarded this argument. Palpatine isn't really doing it for the good, and Knight Templar isn't an auto-exclusion to Complete Monster.
edited 28th Dec '12 3:04:12 PM by SeptimusHeap
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Wasn't trying to make an argument, just state an opinion on what we'd do if we could only have one or the other.
R.I.P 2 My Youth
As an aside, the current OP is getting rather long. Would it be better to toss it in a sandbox, and replace the content with a link?
"Polite life will fill you full of cancer." - Iggy Pop "I've seen the future, brother, it is murder." -Leonard Cohen
Putting the arguments in the "Do Not Even Mention" List in same bullets would help.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Just because it got lost in the shuffle, potential replacement for the Moriarty example on Live-Action TV/the Sherlock YMMV page needs a few more OK votes/notes before being approved. I am loathe to remove the spoiler, as it's a hugely important event to the S2 cliffhanger.
Okay, because comparing Ta'a to the films is appearing to go moot, let's compare her to the other C Ms on the Literature section. Of them:
- Darth Bane forces mass suicide on his entire Brotherhood of Sith Lords, and teaches his apprentice to backstab better than him. (That entry needs to be parsed - if Zannah can love, she doesn't count. I'm not entirely sold on Bane either, but he at least sounds like he has no redeeming qualities.)
- Cronal is a master of Body Horror / Grand Theft Me / Mind Rape, and self-destructing an already loyal army, costing thousands of lives, in his quest for galactic rule.
- Orimi, whose war costs the Star Wars EU "trillions of lives" according to the OP to fulfill a god delusion.
- Ysanne Isard, who creates a bioweapon and looses it on an innocent planet out of sheer spite, in addition to other dictatorly activities.
- Moruth, who needs to be expanded, but is at the very least an inhuman rapist and child murderer on a massive scale.
Comparing Ta'a's actions to those, she is definitely not on the same heinousness level as Ysanne or Cronal. Again, it's not that killing an infant isn't terrible - it's that Moruth is slaughtering hundreds of them in the same universe. If you throw in the films and video games, Ta'a looks even more pathetic compared to the steely awfulness that is Tarkin.
I've scrapped Tzeentch from YMMV.Warhammer 40000. Do we have consensus for removing Abbadon and a rewrite for Bile? The current entry is very weak.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Cleric of Banjo
If it's ok, I'm going to delete the examples on It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia (this was discussed previously at some point), as that is one of those works where everything Crosses the Line Twice. Also, great example of misogynistic bad examples- contrast the evil actions of the male example with the female one.
edited 28th Dec '12 3:35:28 PM by Hodor
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
We removed all of the It's Always Sunny examples from the Live Action page. Torch the YMMV entries, please. And yeah, after all that about Dennis being a sociopath, hearing about someone's mom being smug is... weird.
Cleric of Banjo
Done and done.
Hope not a problem to interupt, but had two examples saw recently and thought problematic:
From Rango:
- Complete Monster: The Mayor. Besides having the voice of ''Lotso, he also has quite the similar personality to boot.]]
- On the flip side, despite his reputation as pure evil, Rattlesnake Jake actually averts it.
Obviously Rattlesnake Jake should be cut if he ends up averting the trope. Also, the example of Mayor is largely based on the voice actor having voiced another character who was a Complete Monster. Can someone give details?
Also wondered about this on Les Misérables:
- Complete Monster: The Thénardiers are arguably more monsterous in the musical than in the book. In the musical, you get a deeper glimpse into Thénardier's mental state, as he loots Les Amis' bodies (in the book, he did not do this, but he looted his share of corpses, prior). Also, shortly after, despite their daughter's and (perhaps) their son's death at the barricade, they are completely unphased, and laugh it off. The fact that most of their numbers are humorous might just make it worse.
Monsieur Thenardier actually is a Complete Monster in the book- I could write an example to explain why (his wife is redeemed by her love for him and some of her children). And yes, the two are actually worse in the musical than they are in the book. However, while their actions in the book are played seriously, in the musical, they are Plucky Comic Relief and their crimes are generally presented humorously, or at worse for Black Comedy (although there are a few moments that do show Thenardier in a frightening light). Also, the Thenardiers do seem to care about each other (even if they don't care about anyone else), which also disqualifies them.
edited 28th Dec '12 4:10:10 PM by Hodor
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Lost in Space
@6261 and 6262: First, shunting the list off to a separate article would make the problem worse, not better, in my opinion. We should always seek to avoid forcing people to click additional links to get information.
Second, I organized it in the way that I did because of the problem of multiple examples from a given work. If you have a better suggestion, then by all means give me the markup you'd prefer.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
I'm with you on that one Hodor - the Thenardiers in the musical are played completely for laughs, and Msr. Thenardier's "Dog Eats Dog" comes off as more Mood Whiplash than CM-status.
Avatar by Leafsnake
Re: Hellsing, Maxwell is sympathetic-ish, but he does seem to regard Anderson as a father even up until death.
Letze's batalion are a group.
Doktor: Too much offscreen villainy.
Burgalers: Fail heinous standard.
Major: Keep, he's a murderous psycho who has no loyalty to his higher ups and seeks only to kill maim, and destroy and also to kill Alucard. He has his men killed without a second thought, and murders his ship's commander when the man protests the pointless deaths.
Zorin Blitz: Hard to say, on one hand she isn't the one causing wholesale slaughter, on the other, she's incredibly sadistic, murdering the hellsing guards, and mindraping one into seeing his daughter, before ripping out the illusion and murdering him. Seras was a fairly sadistic murder, cutting down Pip, and maiming/mutilating her all the while showing her the murder of her parents and rape of her mother.
Hyperion from Immortals is listed on the YMMV page and the Film page, but on the main page, he's listed as a Well-Intentioned Extremist
- Well-Intentioned Extremist: Hyperion's motives for his Rage Against the Heavens was that his family fell ill and was dying, and when he pleaded to them to help save them, they did nothing. So in response he vowed to free the Titans so as to destroy the gods who ignored his pleas for help.
edited 28th Dec '12 5:59:10 PM by TVRulezAgain
@ 6234
I don't know about that. Zeus is bad, but to my knowledge never violates xenia. He also never fed his children to anybody. In fact Zeus, like Ares, is rather protective of his children. In the Tantalus story he's clearly the good guy, and he also has a major Pet the Dog when he resurrects Pelops.
The Greek gods are extreme antiheroes, or even outright villain protagonists, but they aren't at the point of making Tantalus (or to my mind, Sisyphus) look good.
EDIT: Wow the thread expanded quickly while I was writing this.
@ 6240
We would need to add Durge from the comic books to the Star Wars list if we used it.
@ 6256
Duly noted. As for wanting to make sure your vote counts, wait until the subject comes up again, and then make your case.
edited 28th Dec '12 6:44:42 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Can somebody please add Yakone to the OP finally?
How does one go about creating a sandbox? I'm thinking of launching one for Mythology and Religion. There's a couple of characters from a few mythos' that I think might qualify.
I'm generally against a mythology page, but if we must have one I think we can exclude demons and Gods of Evil on the principle of that kind of being their job.
I apologize. My tone is hard to put across here. I'm limited in posting ability to next Wednesday so I'm forced to post short and quick ones here. This makes then sound worse than intended
Also if one judges Ta'a chums by standards of where she appears? She can easily qualify. The books are quite distinct from the films.
And again on montross. We treat video games as separate completely as different works. The only thing that counts is the bounty hunter game for him. Same reason Andrei just counted despite being totally typical in the 'normal' world if darkness setting. In the sourcebooks he be downright tame. Montross also demonstrates that no casualty will deter him if he wants something. A space station contains tons of sentiments an he kills them all without a thought solely to get one guy. This is just the extent of his means. It's te same reason we have freeza and mercenary Tao on the same page
As for nihilus. He is indeed explored more in the supplements. While he is a slave to his hunger he doesn't exactly fail to enjoy it. And his specific targeting of visas and cutting out her eye sockets is very...calculated
edited 28th Dec '12 2:32:31 PM by Lightysnake