Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

After seeing the season premiere of The Flash, I'm no longer sure about Eobard Thawne. He records a video message confessing to the murder of Nora Allen, so that Henry Allen can be exonerated. This is a pretty significant Pet the Dog moment.

Thawne can be cut without argument now.

I've been wondering, how did this whole thing get started in the first place? What made Tv Tropes decide that who is and is not irredeemable, is no longer subjective?

Before I decide on Thawne: Is his arc done? I'm not comfortable voting on a character who hasn't been taken down yet.

I don't believe anybody here was in on that decision, barring maybe Fighteer. I'm also not sure why it's relevant.

edited 6th Oct '15 6:35:00 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

It's unlikely his arc is over. Tom Cavanagh is still a regular.

Abstaning for now, then.

I have no qualms giving a to Jerome, Max and Doctor. General Rodriguez fails the heinousness standard, so reviving his discussion probably isn't gonna be necessary.

As for Thawne, I'm tempted to say after the S2 premiere. However, his arc is not yet finished so, as policy dictates, it's probably best for me to hold my final opinion on him until he dies or drops out of the plot.

Oh yeah, I forgot. In addition to confessing to the murder of Nora Allen, Thawne also leaves STAR Labs to Barry as part of his inheritance.

I will give a to Jerome, Max, the Doctor, Greeth and Stauf.

to Horton, Bill, Monaka and Skullface.

Honestly, I say wait on Thawne. I was never too keen on his inclusion, but I don't think we should remove him just yet. This isn't the first time he's had a Pet the Dog that turned out to be something else entirely. I sincerely doubt he didn't have an ulterior motive for his actions in the S2 premiere.

Yeah, I've been thinking that as well, Ravok. Letting Barry's father go free...knowing someone as smart as him, even something like that could still be part of some larger plan.

I have a question, is it fair to judge characters from a pilot that never made it to series?

There was an animated X-Men pilot from 1989 (Pyrde of the X-Men) where Magneto instead of being an Anti-Villain is a Jerkass who tries to commit genocide. Is it fair to judge him or is it unfair?

In a case where he appears in only a pilot, Magneto would have virtually no characterization. If the only thing we know about him is that he is a jerk and wants to commit genocide without knowing the reason, then he is a textbook case of a Generic Doomsday Villain.

@Overlord: Garrison "General Blitz" Krieger starred in a one-episode pilot (Sgt. Savage and his Screaming Eagles), and he was approved, so I say go for it.

Anywho, Max has unanimous votes, so I present his write-up.

The Losers: In the film adaptation of the comic series, Max is a high-ranking American government operative, with securing American, and by extension his own, global power his ultimate goal. Max orders a black ops team, the titular "Losers," to target a Bolivian drug lord who found out Max's plans' compound for an airstrike, not caring about the fact that there are dozens of children inside, and while The Losers get them out of the base, the kids are murdered when Max orders The Losers' helicopter, believing them to be onboard, destroyed. Commissioning a group of scientists to build him sonic weapons called "Snukes," Max plans on selling them to groups he knows will use them to start wars. Max regularly kills anyone who inconveniences him, from shooting a woman for stumbling while shading him from the sun, to murdering an entire group of his own soldiers for knowing too much about his plans. Acquiring the Snukes, Max sets one to destroy L.A., kills all of the scientists who made the weapon, plans to frame them for the city's destruction, and, when confronted by The Losers, tosses the remote deactivator into the ocean to give himself time to escape, abandoning his allies in the process. A childish and sociopathic mass murderer, Max's jovial and humorous personality only served to heighten his cruel, egomaniacal, actions.

edited 7th Oct '15 5:45:45 PM by Ravok

@ Luna - This thread got started to begin with because of horrific misuse. People put down characters because they were mean, because they were the big bad of the series, the trope was meaningless and was put on the chopping block. This thread is the only reason why the trope still exists.

• Eclipse: A brilliant doctor-scientist driven by the idea of evolution, Eraldo Supryor is the first Culliver, designed to counter anyone with a Battle Aura; he was interested in turning people into walking war machines against what he felt was "the epitome of human evolution" (aka Aura Users). He conducted frequently lethal human experimentation, without informed consent, on thousands of his own patients, involving various syringe injections, serums, false vaccinations, infected or poisoned food supplies, and sometimes accompanied by experimental drugs, electroshock therapy, sleep deprivation, deep sleep treatment, and Gaslighting. This led to his patients arriving for anxiety, chronic depression, or claustrophobia, and leaving with amnesia, permanent debilitation, partial paralysis, blood poisoning, even death. His experiments eventually led to hundreds of thousands of conversions into Cullivers, thereby prompting ethnic persecution and culminating in a series of insurrections that toppled whole countries. As the world's foremost in chemical and biological warfare, but tinged with so-called "Culliverization," Eraldo created what he saw as prototypes for weapons of the future, and used the chaotic landscape of the insurrection as a laboratory. He covertly conducted biochemical field tests on refugees, leading to tens of thousands dying of diseases (anthrax, smallpox, bubonic, etcetera), plague-infested bugs, or contracting mutations and infections; all for testing his research, and with complete disregard for the livelihood of anyone targeted for his examinations. Post-insurrection, Eraldo became Skuurnur's top doctor and scientist, tasked with converting and upgrading all Cullivers working under Skuurnur, as well as researching captured individuals who are seen as threats to society and the Balance of Power. His methods include, without the knowledge of his comrades, simulated strokes, heart attacks, frostbite, and hypothermia, vivisection, heat strokes, and surgery without anesthesia, all dedicated to examining the biological makeup of non-humans in the worst ways possible. Amoral, self-aggrandizing, and obsessed with creating the Ultimate Life Form, Eraldo Supryor is the story's foremost authority in amoral pursuit of science and evolution, no matter how flawed the research or how twisted the method.

edited 6th Oct '15 11:56:54 PM by Serocco

It should be noted Thawne did what he did via a video will in the event of his death, never minding he spent the last few minutes of his life threatening to kill everyone Barry loves, taunting him while doing so. He states in the video will that if Barry is viewing it then that means he is dead and everything he did in the past fifteen years was a waste, meaning that he prepared it in the event that he failed to kill Barry or ruin his life. I'm it's not disqualifying just that I'm not sure if we should cut him or keep him to soon.

Anyways, I think Jerome has more then enough votes for this.

• Gotham: Jerome Valeska is the son of a snake charmer who ended up in Arkham Asylum for murdering his mother. When interrogated, he laughs it off as if it was a joke. In season two, he and several other inmates is recruited into the Maniax gang by Theo Galavan. Jerome functions as he de-facto leader, announcing their presence by throwing several hostages off a roof. Later he attempts to dose a bus full of cheerleaders on fire and shoots up the GCPD station, personally killing Commissioner Essen and kills one of his men for cracking a joke he was about to make. Following the massacre, he announces on live TV that the people of Gotham have seen nothing yet. Later, Jerome kills his father when the carnival is back in town, and poses as a magician to hold a children's hospital charity hostage, killing the deputy mayor. He plans to kill thirteen year old Bruce Wayne, threatening his butler Alfred to draw him out. When he gets his hands on Bruce, he begins to slowly slit his throat in the following standoff. While his death prevents him from growing up to be one of Gotham's most infamous villain, we see the wake of his death sets the inspiration for more maniacs to come.

edited 7th Oct '15 4:15:27 AM by Beast

Yeah, not to mention we don't know why he confessed. Alternative Character Interpretation is at play here. Is it part of a larger plan, or is it a genuine Pet the Dog moment?

@45455 A good write-up for Jerome. Also that part where he slowly and nearly ripped young Bruce's throat out in front of everyone was...*shudders*

edited 7th Oct '15 5:59:43 AM by ZetaRidge

This was discussed once before I believe, but I'd like to make an Effort Post on the Chaos Kin from Kid Icarus: Uprising.

Who is it? What does it do?

The Chaos Kin is a creature that feeds off souls and is the Arc Villain for chapter 18 to 21 of the game. After Pit accidentally released it by defeating Arlon, it escapes from the Lunar Sanctum, possesses Palutena, traps Pit in a ring for years, and leaves humanity helpless to the attacks from both the Underworld Army and Viridi's forces of Nature, before ordering Palutena's army to attack humanity as well. While it can be argued that it possessed Palutena and tried to eat her soul to survive, it's given no reason for attacking humanity, so it can be assumed to do this For the Evulz

When Pit is freed from the ring, the Chaos Kin attempts to shatter Pit's spirit my controlling Palutena to mock him. During his fight with Pit it uses Palutena's body, putting her at risk, as well as trying to avoid Pit's attacks by using Palutena as a shield.

When Pit defeats the Chaos Kin at Palutena's temple, the Chaos Kin steals Palutena's soul and attempts to escape in the Chaos Vortex. Then, after both Pit and Dark Pit defeat it, it attempts to kill Dark Pit and take his body as well, leading to Pit briefly losing his wings and nearly his life to save him.

Is it heinous by the standards of the story?

I'd say so. Unlike every other villain nothing the Chaos Kin says or does is humorous. Even Hades, who's a Complete Monster on his own right, has plenty of light hearted moments in the game. Viridi herself, before even allying with Pit, had the Lunar Sanctum imprison the Chaos King to stop it.

Any mitigating factors?

I can think of one. The idol description states that the Chaos Kin is mindless, so that could be seen as a disqualifying factor. However, he shows when possessing Palutena to have a mind of it's own to contradict that statement.

Final Thoughts?

The Chaos Kin is one of the most vile villains in the game, and treated seriously even moreso than Hades. I believe he qualifies.

Does it have a personality? I think the issue was being a Generic Doomsday Villain.

Supryor

Unsure on Chaos Kin. Waiting to hear more arguments.

Hmm...not sure about Chaos Kin. How much of a personality does he have?

Chaos Kin. Not as heinous as Hades.