During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I too oppose keeping Kingdom Hearts examples on the page, and would furthermore support axing the Video Games section of this altogether. However, I can get behind mentioning the already-existing subpage before the examples.
edited 5th Oct '12 11:06:13 AM by EarlOfSandvich
I now go by Graf von Tirol.
Lost in Space
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
It is redundant to list the KH examples in more than one place. For the same reason, if we have a Monster subpage for a particular work, we don't need to list CM as an example on the YMMV page for that work. Specific trumps general.
Now, it's entirely fine to put a link to the Monster.Kingdom Hearts page on Monster.Disney. That is only sensible so people know where to go.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Sounds like a good idea.
edited 5th Oct '12 11:21:47 AM by Krystoff
Yeah, I'm fine with keeping the video games section and just linking to the Kingdom Hearts page. Then if a solid example appears in another Disney game, Epic Mickey 2 for example, we can put it there too.
Avatar by Leafsnake
Satan: we had a discussion about him, related to being Made of Evil or a God of Evil. Neither count in the Passion, because he doesn't do much on screen.
Huntsclan: no groups. Maybe the leader counts by himself, I haven't seen that much of American Dragon.
Perhaps Huntsclan could be listed as always Chaotic Evil with a few exceptions.
Shouldn't Chad from In The Company Of Men be cut? The troper who posted it said themselves that he "commits not one murder, rape, arson, jaywalk, or indeed any other criminal offense. Yet he is perhaps one of the most disgusting and unsympathetic characters ever portrayed on film." But doesn't a character need to do at least one of those things, or be involved with the carrying out of one of those things, or attempt to do one of those things to qualify? Chad is a Jerkass of the highest order, but I don't think that we can call him a Complete Monster.
Percy from The Green Mile was cut, and, while he might very well be my most hated film character of all time, he doesn't actually commit the kinds of crimes that are associated with Complete Monsters, so I can't claim that he fits this trope. Linton Barwick from In The Loop and Miss Minchin from A Little Princess might also not qualify; it's hard to know where to draw the line, but I think that there should be one, and while I don't like "defending" these characters like this, I also don't think that "completely unsympathetic" should be synonymous with "completely monstrous".
We agreed to cut Chad a while ago. Feel free to make that request.
Looking over the Character Sheet for The Wheel Of Time not only can I safely say that all of the Forsaken don't count, most of them don't. The only two who would appear to are Ishamael, their leader and The Antichrist, and Semirhage, who terrifies all the Forsaken who aren't Ishamael. I'm cutting the rest and putting in entries based on what was on the character sheet.
EDIT: Those entries are now in, and the rest of them are gone. Feel free to look them over for yourselves.
edited 5th Oct '12 2:46:07 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Avatar by Leafsnake
I'm gonna enact the changes I proposed there for Avengers Earths Mightiest Heroes in 24 hours, unless anyone has any objections.
Ross, Reaper, Skrull!cap, Zemo: Cut
Red Skull: keep
I was on the fence about Surtur: still need more people to say conclusively.
edited 5th Oct '12 6:25:10 PM by DrPsyche
Azor Ahai
I say no to Surtur on the grounds that he's along the lines of an Anthropomorphic Personification of evil- he's basically Satan and comes from some kind of "Hell realm" (not Hel though), which is home to fire demons (fire jotun in Norse mythology), which suggests that he's probably a member of an Always Chaotic Evil species. I'm not sure if there was any reference in the show to others from that realm, but "fire demon" doesn't really suggest moral choice.
Hodor
Avatar by Leafsnake
I don't know what the hell he is, I just thought that he was a bad guy who's design was supposed to invoke Satan, so he looks more EVIL (Let me indulge in my bold ALLCAPS). Whether he's an anthropic personification in the comics might fuel the discussion, but this is not the comics, liberties have been taken. Ultimately, is he a God of evil, or just designed to look like our concept of evil, I've got no friggin clue.
(Is there a Hell in Marvel, or just a Hel... is Mephisto involved... Is it related to the show? My head hurts.)
edited 5th Oct '12 10:05:45 PM by DrPsyche
Azor Ahai
Don't think Mephisto came up in the series. Looking at the God of Evil page and others, the Marvel Universe seems to be "blessed" with tons of all-powerful omnicidal maniacs.
You do have a point about different continuities- I forget if the show mentioned what realm Surtur was from. If they did, it is a realm that is home to fire demons (in the comics) or fire jotun (in Norse Mythology).
IIRC, Surtur wants to bring about Ragnorak, right? I mean he basically goes around wiping out the life on other realms for no reason at all.
Hodor
Avatar by Leafsnake
I will give you that God of Evil brings about morality Qualms, but I also have heard Generic Doomsday Villain called on this one (like a few others, including me said).
Surtur just shows up, wipes out a world, kills dwarves, and is evil with the killing and such. Characterization strikes to me as a problem. However, For all intents and purposes, Surtur acts like a god of evil, has numerous minions of fire, and etc. So, yeah Ragnarok seems like his goal (Like you said, I don't know if he voiced it).
So, if no one objects to me deleting Death, I'll go ahead and submit the request.
Azor Ahai
So are you arguing he does count?
I guess basically, he has too little characterization to qualify. I mean complete monsters don't have to have nuance (and in fact probably shouldn't), but he has too little characterization to even really ascribe his actions to sadism.
Tl; dr, Surtur does evil stuff because he is Surtur. While he's sapient, he's functionally more like a force of nature.
edited 5th Oct '12 10:15:49 PM by Jordan
Hodor
Avatar by Leafsnake
Honestly, I'm leaning toward no, with Your God of Evil Argument, and The Generic Doomsday Villain one.
Going off Norse Mythology as a guide, Sutur destroys everything because that's his job. Not sure how different the show is, but he's more the personification of a force that's vital in the cycle of Ragnarok rather than a CM.
Okay, I deleted Death and sent the request to cut him from Monster.Film.
Just a heads up, two tropers ignored the warning at the top of Monster.Criminal Minds and edited the page anyway. The first one only deleted a bit of Word Cruft. Second one added shameless natter. The page is still unlocked and I have a feeling there are going to be more tropers who are going to ignore the warning.
There was discussion about it but I don't see any edits on the page besides me cleaning the page back in May, the warning added in Sept. and the two people ignoring the warning a few days ago.
Should we do some minor clean-up followed by locking the page?
Momentum, a function of mass and velocity, is conserved between portals. In layman's terms: speedy thing goes in, speedy thing comes out.
Lost in Space
Nuked the natter and locked the article.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Stick of the Fallen
I was just taking a glance at Monster.Anime And Manga. The first entry was Johan Liebert. I've never seen Monster, but the entry in question claims that he deconstructs the Complete Monster trope, even though Complete Monster, thus making it Not A Deconstruction. As well, the entry goes on to tell us that he isn't a Complete Monster, and has a Freudian Excuse. He can be cut, right?
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
Since he's the image too, if he's not a keeper after all, I suppose this is grounds for starting another IP thread.
I now go by Graf von Tirol.
I remember that Johan was discussed earlier and that he qualified Freudian Excuse nonwithstanding.
Ah, here we go: [1]
edited 6th Oct '12 4:44:19 PM by SeptimusHeap
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Okay, back when the clean up process was in its infancy, I was talked into allowing Tywin Lannister onto the A Song of Ice and Fire monster sheet. Here's the entry:
"•Tywin Lannister. He is the man who calculates how much of Gregor's cruelty and horror he needs and applies it, knowing the results perfectly well. Gregor is a monster, but almost animalistic. It is Tywin, by his orders or his indifference, who is responsible for Gregor's worst crimes. He is the one who ordered the deaths of Prince Rhaegar's baby son and toddler daughter and sends Gregor out with orders to rape, pillage, and burn. Tywin's care for his family only extends as far as he can control them: he coldly disowns Jaime when he rejects Tywin's plans and treats Cersei as a political bargaining chip— but it is what he does to Tyrion that pushes him over the edge. When Tyrion, thirteen at the time, was married to a girl named Tysha, Tywin was so disgusted his son married such a common girl, he has his entire garrison brutally rape her...and made Tyrion watch. And have her last. The sheets were soaked in blood by the time Tyrion got to her. Tywin is a capable ruler and administrator, but his callous indifference completely removes any sympathy the readers could have for him."
Here's the problem. First of all, the incident with Tyrion's wife, happened before the book even started, as did his sending Gregor and Amory Lorch to get rid of the last of the Targaryens. So Offscreen Villainy is a factor here. One could argue that the business with Tyrion's wife is described in such detail by Tyrion that it does qualify, but then we run into another problem: we don't know that it was a rape. Tysha was paid by each of the soldiers, and because of that, Tyrion spent years thinking she had really been a hooker. We find out that she wasn't, but we still don't know if she participated willingly or not in the gangbang. If she did, the worst Tywin is guilty of is being an awful father (and not even the worst one in the series; that's what we have Craster, Randyll Tarly, and Walder Frey for). And even if she didn't—even if it was a rape—I hate to say it, but so what?
In A Song of Ice and Fire rape is a fairly common occurence. Most soldiers are said to have committed it. Gregor Clegane, Ramsay Snow/Bolton, and Vargo Hoat do it to any woman they encounter. Rorge—who isn't even on the list—regularly rapes young children while wearing full plate mail. In contrast to that, we have one crime that Tywin may or may not have done.
As for the rest—every lord in the Seven Kingdoms uses their daughters as political bargaining chips. Not to mention, it's Cersei, which makes it Kick The Son Of A Bitch at it's worst (and given that Tywin actually gives her a slate of options) it's not.
Finally we get to the idea that he orders Gregor Clegane to commit atrocities. That's true, but he doesn't give Gregor, or Amory Lorch, or Vargo Hoat, specific instructions. He just turns them loose, knowing what will happen. And that makes him no worse than some of the heroic characters. Robb Stark, an unambiguously "good" guy, not only hires Vargo Hoat away from Tywin, but also makes use of Roose Bolton and Ramsay, who are every bit as vile. Heck, Arya Stark pulls an Enemy Mine with Rorge and Biter to make her escape from imprisonment. Using bad people to do things for you, is distressingly common behaviour in the setting.
As a final note, Tywin has some good points. As King's Hand he tries to restrain the worst of Aerys' and Joffrey's impulses. He crushes enemies harshly, but then helps them back up after beating them. He's also a fair, if harsh, ruler. You can argue that's Pragmatic Villainy, but it still puts him miles ahead of a lot of rulers (Joffrey, Aerys, all of the Greyjoys, Cersei). He also deeply loved his wife Joanna (in fact his dislike of Tyrion stems from Tyrion's having killed Joanna during childbirth), tried to prevent his sister from ending up in an unwanted marriage (when he was ten might I add), and has the respect of many throughout the kingdom, including his totally devoted younger brother Kevan. When Tyrion is convicted of killing Joffrey, Tywin, refuses to have him executed on the grounds that they are blood, and instead plans to send him to the wall.
Put succinctly—not heinous by the standards of the setting, and may have some redeeming features. He shouldn't be listed.
I agree with Ambar. While I think what Tywin does is Pragmatic Villainy, and I do think he had Tyrion’s wife gang raped (a lot of her blood mingling with the coins doesn't hint at willingness, plus I see no reason for Jamie to lie about her not being a whore), but as Ambar listed, Tywin does have some good traits. Even if he does use his children for political ends, it's fairly common and there are hints he genuinely cares about them, even if he is controlling about it. Also, as Ambar said, he did love his wife. He’s nowhere near the sympathetic portrayal from the TV series, but he’s not a Complete Monster either.
Speaking of A Song Of Ice And Fire: Amory Lorch. Most of his crimes are offscreen, except for his attack on the Night’s Watch recruits, which isn’t even mentioned on his entry. In the books he comes across as standard evil, a brutish military leader who abuses his authority. His worst deeds are done off page and his only onscreen evil deed could be seen as a standard military practice for his side in the war. I think he should be cut.
edited 6th Oct '12 8:19:47 PM by OccasionalExister
I support cutting Satan. I support cutting the entire Passion Of The Christ entry. Centurion doesn't much characterization and when I saw the film. I didn't even know which one was him. He violates "no group" rule in my eyes. I am fine with cutting God from Legion. This might be a Flame Bait.