Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

edited 7th Nov '17 9:59:04 AM by Fighteer

[up] I already requested to cut the Huntsclan. I am for listing Kingdom Hearts on Disney. Kingdom Hearts is a Disney game, thus examples from it belong on the page.

I support cutting Satan. I support cutting the entire Passion Of The Christ entry. Centurion doesn't much characterization and when I saw the film. I didn't even know which one was him. He violates "no group" rule in my eyes. I am fine with cutting God from Legion. This might be a Flame Bait.
I too oppose keeping Kingdom Hearts examples on the page, and would furthermore support axing the Video Games section of this altogether. However, I can get behind mentioning the already-existing subpage before the examples.

edited 5th Oct '12 11:06:13 AM by EarlOfSandvich

I now go by Graf von Tirol.
3653 Fighteer5th Oct 2012 11:04:18 AM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
[up][up]It is redundant to list the KH examples in more than one place. For the same reason, if we have a Monster subpage for a particular work, we don't need to list CM as an example on the YMMV page for that work. Specific trumps general.

Now, it's entirely fine to put a link to the Monster.Kingdom Hearts page on Monster.Disney. That is only sensible so people know where to go.
[up] Sounds like a good idea.

edited 5th Oct '12 11:21:47 AM by Krystoff

Yeah, I'm fine with keeping the video games section and just linking to the Kingdom Hearts page. Then if a solid example appears in another Disney game, Epic Mickey 2 for example, we can put it there too.
3656 DrPsyche5th Oct 2012 01:03:49 PM from Hawaii , Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Don't disturb
Satan: we had a discussion about him, related to being Made of Evil or a God of Evil. Neither count in the Passion, because he doesn't do much on screen.

Huntsclan: no groups. Maybe the leader counts by himself, I haven't seen that much of American Dragon.

Perhaps Huntsclan could be listed as always Chaotic Evil with a few exceptions.
Shouldn't Chad from In the Company of Men be cut? The troper who posted it said themselves that he "commits not one murder, rape, arson, jaywalk, or indeed any other criminal offense. Yet he is perhaps one of the most disgusting and unsympathetic characters ever portrayed on film." But doesn't a character need to do at least one of those things, or be involved with the carrying out of one of those things, or attempt to do one of those things to qualify? Chad is a Jerkass of the highest order, but I don't think that we can call him a Complete Monster.

Percy from The Green Mile was cut, and, while he might very well be my most hated film character of all time, he doesn't actually commit the kinds of crimes that are associated with Complete Monsters, so I can't claim that he fits this trope. Linton Barwick from In the Loop and Miss Minchin from A Little Princess might also not qualify; it's hard to know where to draw the line, but I think that there should be one, and while I don't like "defending" these characters like this, I also don't think that "completely unsympathetic" should be synonymous with "completely monstrous".

[up]We agreed to cut Chad a while ago. Feel free to make that request.

Looking over the Character Sheet for The Wheel of Time not only can I safely say that all of the Forsaken don't count, most of them don't. The only two who would appear to are Ishamael, their leader and The Antichrist, and Semirhage, who terrifies all the Forsaken who aren't Ishamael. I'm cutting the rest and putting in entries based on what was on the character sheet.

EDIT: Those entries are now in, and the rest of them are gone. Feel free to look them over for yourselves.

edited 5th Oct '12 2:46:07 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

3659 DrPsyche5th Oct 2012 06:22:53 PM from Hawaii , Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Don't disturb

I'm gonna enact the changes I proposed there for The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes in 24 hours, unless anyone has any objections.

Ross, Reaper, Skrull!cap, Zemo: Cut

Red Skull: keep

I was on the fence about Surtur: still need more people to say conclusively.

edited 5th Oct '12 6:25:10 PM by DrPsyche

Azor Ahai
I say no to Surtur on the grounds that he's along the lines of an Anthropomorphic Personification of evil- he's basically Satan and comes from some kind of "Hell realm" (not Hel though), which is home to fire demons (fire jotun in Norse mythology), which suggests that he's probably a member of an Always Chaotic Evil species. I'm not sure if there was any reference in the show to others from that realm, but "fire demon" doesn't really suggest moral choice.
3661 DrPsyche5th Oct 2012 09:54:03 PM from Hawaii , Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Don't disturb
[up] I don't know what the hell he is, I just thought that he was a bad guy who's design was supposed to invoke Satan, so he looks more EVIL (Let me indulge in my bold ALLCAPS). Whether he's an anthropic personification in the comics might fuel the discussion, but this is not the comics, liberties have been taken. Ultimately, is he a God of evil, or just designed to look like our concept of evil, I've got no friggin clue.

(Is there a Hell in Marvel, or just a Hel... is Mephisto involved... Is it related to the show? My head hurts.)

edited 5th Oct '12 10:05:45 PM by DrPsyche

Azor Ahai
Don't think Mephisto came up in the series. Looking at the God of Evil page and others, the Marvel Universe seems to be "blessed" with tons of all-powerful omnicidal maniacs.

You do have a point about different continuities- I forget if the show mentioned what realm Surtur was from. If they did, it is a realm that is home to fire demons (in the comics) or fire jotun (in Norse Mythology).

IIRC, Surtur wants to bring about Ragnorak, right? I mean he basically goes around wiping out the life on other realms for no reason at all.
3663 DrPsyche5th Oct 2012 10:09:29 PM from Hawaii , Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Don't disturb
[up] I will give you that God of Evil brings about morality Qualms, but I also have heard Generic Doomsday Villain called on this one (like a few others, including me said).

Surtur just shows up, wipes out a world, kills dwarves, and is evil with the killing and such. Characterization strikes to me as a problem. However, For all intents and purposes, Surtur acts like a god of evil, has numerous minions of fire, and etc. So, yeah Ragnarok seems like his goal (Like you said, I don't know if he voiced it).
The Chaotic Queen
So, if no one objects to me deleting Death, I'll go ahead and submit the request.
(>^.^)> (>^.^<) <(^.^<) <(^.^)> v(^.^)^
Azor Ahai
[up][up]So are you arguing he does count?

I guess basically, he has too little characterization to qualify. I mean complete monsters don't have to have nuance (and in fact probably shouldn't), but he has too little characterization to even really ascribe his actions to sadism.

Tl; dr, Surtur does evil stuff because he is Surtur. While he's sapient, he's functionally more like a force of nature.

edited 5th Oct '12 10:15:49 PM by Jordan

3666 DrPsyche5th Oct 2012 10:38:01 PM from Hawaii , Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Don't disturb
[up] Honestly, I'm leaning toward no, with Your God of Evil Argument, and The Generic Doomsday Villain one.
3667 Shaoken6th Oct 2012 04:56:19 AM , Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
Going off Norse Mythology as a guide, Sutur destroys everything because that's his job. Not sure how different the show is, but he's more the personification of a force that's vital in the cycle of Ragnarok rather than a CM.
The Chaotic Queen
Okay, I deleted Death and sent the request to cut him from Monster.Film.
(>^.^)> (>^.^<) <(^.^<) <(^.^)> v(^.^)^
3669 Indigo12ash6th Oct 2012 09:00:41 AM from Aperture Science
Just a heads up, two tropers ignored the warning at the top of Monster.Criminal Minds and edited the page anyway. The first one only deleted a bit of Word Cruft. Second one added shameless natter. The page is still unlocked and I have a feeling there are going to be more tropers who are going to ignore the warning.

There was discussion about it but I don't see any edits on the page besides me cleaning the page back in May, the warning added in Sept. and the two people ignoring the warning a few days ago.

Should we do some minor clean-up followed by locking the page?
Momentum, a function of mass and velocity, is conserved between portals. In layman's terms: speedy thing goes in, speedy thing comes out.
3670 Fighteer6th Oct 2012 10:07:11 AM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Nuked the natter and locked the article.
3671 Lightflame6th Oct 2012 04:34:33 PM from where you can't find me , Relationship Status: Drowning in your pond, hoping you'll notice me
Stick of the Fallen
I was just taking a glance at Monster.Anime And Manga. The first entry was Johan Liebert. I've never seen Monster, but the entry in question claims that he deconstructs the Complete Monster trope, even though Complete Monster, thus making it Not a Deconstruction. As well, the entry goes on to tell us that he isn't a Complete Monster, and has a Freudian Excuse. He can be cut, right?
"Oh great! Let's pile up all the useless cats and hope a tree falls on them!"
Since he's the image too, if he's not a keeper after all, I suppose this is grounds for starting another IP thread.
I now go by Graf von Tirol.
3673 SeptimusHeap6th Oct 2012 04:39:03 PM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
I remember that Johan was discussed earlier and that he qualified Freudian Excuse nonwithstanding.

Ah, here we go: [1]

edited 6th Oct '12 4:44:19 PM by SeptimusHeap

Okay, back when the clean up process was in its infancy, I was talked into allowing Tywin Lannister onto the A Song of Ice and Fire monster sheet. Here's the entry:

"•Tywin Lannister. He is the man who calculates how much of Gregor's cruelty and horror he needs and applies it, knowing the results perfectly well. Gregor is a monster, but almost animalistic. It is Tywin, by his orders or his indifference, who is responsible for Gregor's worst crimes. He is the one who ordered the deaths of Prince Rhaegar's baby son and toddler daughter and sends Gregor out with orders to rape, pillage, and burn. Tywin's care for his family only extends as far as he can control them: he coldly disowns Jaime when he rejects Tywin's plans and treats Cersei as a political bargaining chip— but it is what he does to Tyrion that pushes him over the edge. When Tyrion, thirteen at the time, was married to a girl named Tysha, Tywin was so disgusted his son married such a common girl, he has his entire garrison brutally rape her...and made Tyrion watch. And have her last. The sheets were soaked in blood by the time Tyrion got to her. Tywin is a capable ruler and administrator, but his callous indifference completely removes any sympathy the readers could have for him."

Here's the problem. First of all, the incident with Tyrion's wife, happened before the book even started, as did his sending Gregor and Amory Lorch to get rid of the last of the Targaryens. So Offscreen Villainy is a factor here. One could argue that the business with Tyrion's wife is described in such detail by Tyrion that it does qualify, but then we run into another problem: we don't know that it was a rape. Tysha was paid by each of the soldiers, and because of that, Tyrion spent years thinking she had really been a hooker. We find out that she wasn't, but we still don't know if she participated willingly or not in the gangbang. If she did, the worst Tywin is guilty of is being an awful father (and not even the worst one in the series; that's what we have Craster, Randyll Tarly, and Walder Frey for). And even if she didn't—even if it was a rape—I hate to say it, but so what?

In A Song of Ice and Fire rape is a fairly common occurence. Most soldiers are said to have committed it. Gregor Clegane, Ramsay Snow/Bolton, and Vargo Hoat do it to any woman they encounter. Rorge—who isn't even on the list—regularly rapes young children while wearing full plate mail. In contrast to that, we have one crime that Tywin may or may not have done.

As for the rest—every lord in the Seven Kingdoms uses their daughters as political bargaining chips. Not to mention, it's Cersei, which makes it Kick the Son of a Bitch at it's worst (and given that Tywin actually gives her a slate of options) it's not.

Finally we get to the idea that he orders Gregor Clegane to commit atrocities. That's true, but he doesn't give Gregor, or Amory Lorch, or Vargo Hoat, specific instructions. He just turns them loose, knowing what will happen. And that makes him no worse than some of the heroic characters. Robb Stark, an unambiguously "good" guy, not only hires Vargo Hoat away from Tywin, but also makes use of Roose Bolton and Ramsay, who are every bit as vile. Heck, Arya Stark pulls an Enemy Mine with Rorge and Biter to make her escape from imprisonment. Using bad people to do things for you, is distressingly common behaviour in the setting.

As a final note, Tywin has some good points. As King's Hand he tries to restrain the worst of Aerys' and Joffrey's impulses. He crushes enemies harshly, but then helps them back up after beating them. He's also a fair, if harsh, ruler. You can argue that's Pragmatic Villainy, but it still puts him miles ahead of a lot of rulers (Joffrey, Aerys, all of the Greyjoys, Cersei). He also deeply loved his wife Joanna (in fact his dislike of Tyrion stems from Tyrion's having killed Joanna during childbirth), tried to prevent his sister from ending up in an unwanted marriage (when he was ten might I add), and has the respect of many throughout the kingdom, including his totally devoted younger brother Kevan. When Tyrion is convicted of killing Joffrey, Tywin, refuses to have him executed on the grounds that they are blood, and instead plans to send him to the wall.

Put succinctly—not heinous by the standards of the setting, and may have some redeeming features. He shouldn't be listed.
[up]I agree with Ambar. While I think what Tywin does is Pragmatic Villainy, and I do think he had Tyrion’s wife gang raped (a lot of her blood mingling with the coins doesn't hint at willingness, plus I see no reason for Jamie to lie about her not being a whore), but as Ambar listed, Tywin does have some good traits. Even if he does use his children for political ends, it's fairly common and there are hints he genuinely cares about them, even if he is controlling about it. Also, as Ambar said, he did love his wife. He’s nowhere near the sympathetic portrayal from the TV series, but he’s not a Complete Monster either.

Speaking of A Song of Ice and Fire: Amory Lorch. Most of his crimes are offscreen, except for his attack on the Night’s Watch recruits, which isn’t even mentioned on his entry. In the books he comes across as standard evil, a brutish military leader who abuses his authority. His worst deeds are done off page and his only onscreen evil deed could be seen as a standard military practice for his side in the war. I think he should be cut.

edited 6th Oct '12 8:19:47 PM by OccasionalExister

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