Opening.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
To compound matters that's Morgan Freeman as GOD in a movie franchise where God Is Good (even if a bit of a Trickster Mentor to humanity) in the page image. That makes this even more a mess if it's supposed to be about Wicked Cultured villains wearing white suits or just a general trope about white suits signifying some kind of power/authority in characters that wear them.
I also support a full overhaul to actually narrow down what the hell this trope is supposed to be and clean it up.
Edited by CryptidProductions on May 20th 2019 at 1:05:06 AM
Yeah, the page image is not really an example.
"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Villain in a White Suit is a good name. An example of God Is Good is a bad image.
Edit: Also, Bruce Goodman from Ace Attorney (the subject of a ZCE) isn't a villain. In addition to being the victim in a murder case, his last name is a Meaningful Name and he's described as a good man in-game.
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 20th 2019 at 12:50:54 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Yeah.
Villains that are more on the side of Wicked Cultured (or at least want to give an air of being educated and cultured) wearing white suits to contrast their villainy is definitely a trope.
Like Future!Lucifer in Supernatural or Boss Hogg in The Dukes of Hazard. Dexter Morgan in Hitman isn't a fully straight example since he wears a pink shirt under his suit jacket but still a simlar principal.
It's almost like a subversion of the Southern Gentleman's white suit.
Any other opinions?
Should this be restricted only to white suits?
"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
Is there anything that this does that isn't covered by Bright Is Not Good, or is white not covered by Bright Is Not Good?
Edited by dragonfire5000 on Jun 1st 2019 at 9:39:16 AM
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
White is not a bright colour, being covered by Light Is Not Good instead. Here's a google search for "brightly coloured".
Note that black and white can appear in conjunction to the bright colours, but aren't really associated with the idea.
I think White Suits in particular are such a common version of this trope that we maybe should split it into the iconic White Suit Of Villiany and another trope for white outfits in general.
Edited by CryptidProductions on Jun 2nd 2019 at 1:12:09 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
, Yes, this would be a subtrope of Light Is Not Good, and has no relation that I can see to Bright Is Not Good. There are a few differences that make it worthy of a split, in my opinion.
- Light Is Not Good is not specifically about clothes- it can include such things as being symbolically associated with angels or the sun, or having light powers. This is more mundane, and can be at play in works that completely lack special powers.
- White suits in particular have certain additional connotations not necessarily part of Light Is Not Good. There's the connotations of Badass in a Nice Suit, as well as Wicked Cultured (as previously mentioned, subverting the Southern Gentleman archetype). Because of this, I actually do think this should be restricted to suit wearing.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
I don't think we need to make a trope just for suits. I think the name, and a mild emphasis on suits in the description, is sufficient for our purposes. I see several examples of Villain in a White Suit where the character is wearing robes or more casual clothing, but they're usually fulfilling the same narrative role within the styles available to the work (not every work can have characters wearing suits, even when set in the modern day). Examples mentioned in this thread are El-Khazzani from The 15:17 to Paris and Ruvik from The Evil Within.
I don't believe Boss Hogg from The Dukes of Hazzard is a subversion of the Southern Gentleman in a white suit. I think it's a straight example of villainy and gentleman (at least by southern standards).
Edited by crazysamaritan on Jun 4th 2019 at 6:05:49 AM
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I agree with Villain in a White Suit being better than White Suit Of Villainy. The former more clearly prioritizes the characterization aspect, and the current name's problem is that people are focusing too much on the outfit being worn.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 4th 2019 at 5:48:49 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Should I make a page action crowner?
"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
Short-Term Projects herald
Yes.
Boss Hogg is a straight example of Fat, Sweaty Southerner in a White Suit
I think Fat, Sweaty Southerner in a White Suit is a subtrope of this.
Here's a crowner. I am strongly against merging with Woman In White but I included it as an option as it was argued for here.
Hi
Crowner's hooked, thanks. ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Weekend is ending, so recording current options for future reference:
- Redefine to be about Wicked Cultured or mobster villains who wear white. (5:0)
For the record, Man In White is already a supertrope to Fat, Sweaty Southerner in a White Suit, and I think it should stay that way if we go with the restricting to villains route. That crowner option isn't mutually exclusive with any of the other options. If people are vote it down (as they are currently), does that mean that the redefinition should proceed in a way that excludes Fat, Sweaty Southerner in a White Suit?
"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
I don't think it is currently a super trope:
That sounds more like a Sister Trope; related and sometimes overlapping.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
I guess the current description is pretty unclear. Still, I don't think the two options are mutually exclusive.
I also see that someone added "redefine as a subtrope to Light Is Not Good", which I also think is not mutually exclusive with the top option.
"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Right, "Subtrope to Wicked Cultured", "Subtrope to Light Is Not Good", and "Supertrope to Fat, Sweaty Southerner in a White Suit" should all form a compatible Venn diagram together. We could do any one, any two, or all three. I don't think they'd be compatible with merging into another trope, since that usually means "turn current page into a redirect and move examples over to the target page".
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Supersonic Woman
I can at least give context for the Kamen Rider Drive movie example. The villain of the movie takes the human appearance of the Hero's son from the future, but with this really weird
◊, all white suit.
◊ The REAL future son of the hero only
◊ wears black
◊ and all of his things from his superhero persona
◊ and car
◊ are black.
In addition, the villain's true monster form is white/grey/silver
◊ and gold.
I wish luck in fixing up the trope otherwise
I'm a shooting star leaping through the sky like a tiger, defying the laws of gravity
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I agree.
Crown Description:
Man In White has a high ZCE rate, unclear description, and unclear relationship with other tropes.
There has been some
confusion
about what Man In White actually is. I believe that the vague title and long and rambling description contribute to this, and that both should be fixed.
I think this trope should be called Villain in a White Suit, and narrowed down to this aspect of the description:
There's just something about a man in white that weirds people out. One possible explanation for this is that since conservative men's attire has been dark-colored for the longest time (black, charcoal, and navy), looking upon a man in white creates a sensation not unlike a color-inverted image. Another one is that since white is also the color of snow and bone, an all-white ensemble evokes sensations of coldness and death.
In the US, white suits have also come to be associated with Southern plantation owners, leading to the birth of the Fat, Sweaty Southerner in a White Suit. As such, white clothing in American media can also be used to suggest pride, avarice, ambition, and questionable morality, which is why you can see so many mafiosos, drug lords, and corrupt corporate executives in such garb. For a more in-depth treatise on the subject, see this article
.
This is a coherent, meaningful subtrope of Light Is Not Good. But then the rest of the description muddles this, implying that any instance of a man wearing white is an example of the trope (making it a meaningless appearance trope), and also muddles the distinction between this and Woman In White.
Wick Check (1147 wicks), checked 50. My notes in bold.
Wick check results: The context on these examples in general is not good. Most of the entries in the non-zce categories are still insufficient for my liking, but I was able to get the gist of the meaning. Villain wears white suit: 7 (14%)
Insufficient context, but fits Villain In A White Suit: 12 (24%)
Other symbolism: 7 (14%) A mix of meanings, but most seem to be Light Is Good or "mysterious otheworldly figure" akin to Woman In White.
Insufficient context/not meaningful: 24 (48%)
Conclusions:
Edited by naturalironist on Apr 21st 2019 at 7:21:06 AM
"It's just a show; I should really just relax"