Complaining (alt names crowner 9/30/16): They Just Didnt Care

From Ask The Tropers:

In the conversation that followed, a couple people (myself included) pointed out that the They Just Didn't Care page doesn't really offer much in the way of a coherent definition or objective criteria to judge the above example entries against to decide whether they are valid examples. Reading through it, I can't find much substance to it beyond "this thing is kinda bad," which strikes me as a complaining magnet.

So I did a wick check, with samples randomly selected via the always-super-scientific method of scrolling the wick check page down and clicking whatever my cursor lands on, repeating as necessary. Without any really good criteria, I was forced to use the "I can't define misuse, but I know it when I see it" method, so please feel free to double-check my reasoning to see if y'all agree with it.

• YMMV.All Star Batman And Robin The Boy Wonder - Complaining / shoehorning. Some of the complaints are about minor continuity errors, others about creative choices they disagree with but that don't particularly show any lack of care on the part of the creators.
• YMMV.Archie Comics Sonic The Hedgehog - Valid-ish. In between complaints about the quality of the artwork— a pretty subjective thing— the example points out an instance in which an editor's note was mistakenly left in, which could certainly be interpreted as TJDC.
• DETHRONINGMOMENT.Bennettthe Sage - Complaining. The troper takes issue with a reviewer's dislike of Halo 4, in particular that reviewer's criticism of the guns as too same-y.
• YMMV.Call Of Duty Black Ops 2 - Complaining. Example reads as "this game [Declassified for the Vita, not the main subject of the article] is really kinda bad," without attempting to show that that badness is due to lack of care as opposed to budgetary or time constraints, lack of skill, or the inherent difficulty of making video games.
• Quotes.Creator Backlash - Valid. The quote discusses the apparent lack of enthusiasm of the actors in the Star Wars Holiday Special, using Harrison Ford as a specific example.
• Headscratchers.D Gray Man - Valid-ish. The troper speculates that some of the inaccuracies in the manga's depiction of Catholicism are because the creator just didn't care about being accurate, which is reasonable enough, although if she wanted the aesthetic of Catholicism but not the substance, it's probably more properly an example of Faux Symbolism than TJDC.
• YMMV.Dinosaur Planet - Complaining. Points to a couple of minor and pedantic inaccuracies as evidence that the creators JDC.
• YMMV.Elf Bowling One And Two - Complaining. Example boils down to "this game is bad and I hate it."
• Doing It for the Art.Film - Shoehorning. The example contradicts itself, claiming that Seltzer and Friedberg don't care about the quality of their movies, but then goes on to explain that they have continued to make them for years after they have fallen out of fashion rather than moving on to more lucrative opportunities, which sounds like two people who, say what you will about the quality of their work itself, continue to make a living doing what they love, which is definitely not TJDC.
• Main.Game Show Appearance - Ambiguous. I... kind of couldn't even parse what this example was trying to say.
• YMMV.Harvest Moon Animal Parade - Complaining-ish. It was hard to parse this example without knowledge of the game being discussed, but it seemed like they were complaining about a minor continuity error.
• Characters.Hyperdimension Neptunia Victory - Valid. In Universe Example in which the character straight-up admits to doing a shoddy job because he didn't care.
• Kaiju - Complaining. A Pot Hole referring to the 1998 Godzilla movie as "notoriously half-assed" with no other explanation.
• YMMV.Metal Gear Solid Peace Walker - Complaining about a minor continuity error.
• StylisticSuck.Live Action TV - Valid-ish. In-universe example of a creative team that really doesn't care.
• Recap.Mystery Science Theater 3000 S 04 E 18 Attack Of The Eye Creatures - Zero Context Example. Calls it the Trope Namer with no other explanation.
• Main.Out Of Order - Valid-ish. A collection of a comic book is presented in random order for no apparent reason.
• YMMV.Pokemon Black 2 And White 2 - Shoehorning; uses it as a Stock Phrase that has little to do with the "trope."
• Funny.Rebel Taxi - Valid-ish. Mentions a movie which uses Google Earth for transitions without removing the Google logo, which certainly sounds like a lack of attention to detail.
• YMMV.Saint Seiya Omega - Complaining. Points to a certain episode having "animation issues that are easy to spot" without further explanation of what these issues were or attempting to show that they were caused by lack of care as opposed to budgetary or time restraints, lack of talent, etc.
• WebVideo.The Music Video Show - Valid-ish. In-universe / Discussed Trope example of a reviewer accusing his subject of this.
• WMG.Smallville - Ambiguous. It's hard to parse this one without knowledge of the show being discussed. Seems like complaining, but I could be wrong.
• UsefulNotes.Stock Dinosaurs True Dinosaurs - Complaining. Uses a rather pedantic nitpick as evidence that TJDC.
• YMMV.Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles - Valid-ish. Points to the soundtrack song "Turtle Power" by Partners in Kryme, whose lyrics are an otherwise accurate synopsis of the plot of the 1990 film, mistakenly citing Raphael (not Leonardo, as would be accurate) as the group's leader and no one bothering to correct them before the song's completion and inclusion in the film.
• DorkAge.The DCU - Complaining about creative decisions that, while they sound pretty bad, aren't necessarily a sign that the creator actually didn't care (as opposed to just, y'know, having bad judgment about what the fans would enjoy).

Results:

• Complaining and/or shoehorning: 48%
• More or less valid: 36%
• ZCE or otherwise ambiguous: 16%

I'd say I've been pretty generous about what's considered "complaining" and what's considered a more-or-less valid example, since except for In Universe Examples, almost all of the "valid" examples are still pretty complain-y, but that's kind of the nature of the "trope" as it's currently defined... or, more accurately, not defined, because there aren't really any good criteria to apply.

Possible solutions that occur to me are cutting the page entirely, an Example Sectionectomy, or limiting examples to In Universe Examples and/or instances when there is clear Word of God stating that yeah, actually, they really didn't care much about that particular work and were just cashing a paycheck.

edited 21st Jun '16 1:45:46 PM by HighCrate

Opened. Yikes, the wick check indicated a lot of complaining. A cleanup may be needed, though I'm fine with a sectionectomy.

I'd rather make it In Universe Examples Only. I think there is a salvageable trope concept here.

I wouldnt mind a 'Word of God required for examples' requirement on this one.

I think we'd have to make it Trivia if we added a Word of God requirement.

Move to Darth. I don't think it is a trope otherwise. I compare with So Bad, It's Good, and I say, how is this different? This is the Special Effects Failure, but without the rest of the definition of So Bad Its Good. In the end, that says darth to me.

Seconding the move to Darth. It seems to be a complaint magnet anyway.. if this isn't feasible then I would suggest add citations to the Criteria needed to count for examples. (like Unfortunate Implications). As well as a clearer definition.

Yeah, Darth is the way to go.

Sure, move it to Darth if we want to keep the inbounds.

Moving it to Darth Wiki seems like a good solution. People who enjoy reading the examples will get to keep them, and people who don't like the complaining will not have to worry about having the complaining on YMMV pages.

+1 to move it to Darth.

I'd argue that that isn't a valid use. It may have fit the old description, but this more an Artistic License trope. Not caring about being accurate is not the same as not caring about the production quality of the work, which is what the new description was supposed to be about.

Whatever ends up happening here, I'm not sure why A Wizard Did It still a subtrope if it's supposed to be about production mistakes or whatnot, rather than anything to do with plot/research/consistency. I'm assuming it was left by mistake when the description was changed. Stuff like that might be the cause at least some of the misuse, and I hope no one objects to my removal of it.

Edit: The contrast with Shown Their Work doesn't fit anymore either.

Edit 2: I hadn't bothered to look at the actual examples on the page, but I decided to scan through the comicbook section, and it's full of complaints that have nothing to do with production or editorial mistakes (and I'm struggling to find an example that actually belongs there). If it were up to me I'd scrap all examples and have the page started again with a clear description that it has nothing to do with continuity or bad characterizations or whatever, but at the very least it's in need of a thorough pruning, whether it ends up in Darth Wiki or not (unless were reverting the description to be more in line with the older version of the trope, which I hope we're not even if it's demoted to DW, otherwise we'll just get Wallbangers v2).

edited 22nd Jun '16 10:13:17 AM by supergod

Move to Darth Wiki

Why are we so keen of abusing Darth Wiki as a dumping ground again?

Does that count as abuse? If it doesn't go to darth, I don't think it is a trope. What is it? A joke. One made by reviewers when laughing at a work's absolute failure. Usually in the special effects department. An audience reaction fully a subtrope of So Bad Its Good, but with no identity of its own.

In darth, it can take on more meaning. I am not familiar with all the darth tropes, but I think that this trope is sufficiently distinct from so bad it's horrible.

Regarding the comic book section, the Sonic example where an artist's note to the colourist made it into the published comic seems legit. The section isn't complete garbage, though there are a lot of bad examples.

Okay, you know what, I think I was wrong. Instead of moving to darth, convert to index.

Are there any notable examples of They Just Didn't Care not covered by the subtropes? I think the subtropes are all good. And this does make sense as (index of things related to special effects failure).

This solution prevents the problem of orphaning the subtropes. They kind of do belong together. You know, this kind of makes sense. Why does They Just Didn't Care come off as not a trope? Maybe because it is half trivia. The subtropes are a mix of trivia tropes and audience reactions (and a few objective glitches).

edited 22nd Jun '16 11:39:42 AM by war877

Making it an index might work but considering the verbal tic of a name however I do not think that will stop people from using it in wicks.

Makes me wish we had 2.0 already...

What's so bad about moving to Darth Wiki? That way, the excessive negativity can be cleaned off of general YMMV pages. We don't have to change the definition to make it more broad or anything; that'll just cause more unnecessary complaining, and turn the pages into a wallbangers duplicate.

How would 2.0 help? I could easily see a bot that can go through the site and remove all potholes of a phrase, if that is the problem.

You wouldn't be allowed to list it as a super trope or index on the subtropes. They would all need to be rewritten. They would also lose their link to each other.

edited 22nd Jun '16 12:03:59 PM by war877

Because people will still link to it and Darth Wiki's purpose is not to serve as a dump.

I thought anything on the Darth gives a noticeable icon if you link it on the main wiki, even on ymmv pages.

If this were moved to Darth Wiki in its current form, what would be the practical difference between it and So Bad, It's Good / So Bad Its Horrible?

edited 22nd Jun '16 12:32:05 PM by HighCrate

So Bad, It's Good is a praise and says nothing of the production process. Yuge difference. SBIH is an ultra super negative version with carefully vetted examples.