Condemned by History cleanup thread

Condemned by History is a problem trope for many reasons. It leads to edit warring and confusion over what qualifies. In this thread we'll look for bad examples, and look for feedback. Here are the guidelines for this trope:

1. The franchise has to be truly popular and loved at first. Things that are So Bad, It's Horrible don't count.
2. Simply losing popularity isn't enough. We need to see an actual backlash, with liking it being considered bizarre. Otherwise, every not-so-famous film or concluded television series would be here.

Let's go!

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 16th 2024 at 4:23:01 AM

This has been needed for a while; props for taking initiative. I did an informal cleanup of the example pages a while ago, erring on the side of caution and deleting only the most egregious shoehorning. There's probably a lot more cleanup that could be done, but I didn't want to make any really deep cuts without formal consensus and had too much else on my plate to want to go about getting it. This thread should help a lot.

That said, I'll start by bringing up an example that's had some back-and-forth in both the Discussion page and the "Is This An Example" thread with no definitive consensus having been reached. I'll go ahead and copy-paste my post from "Is This An Example":

Can I get opinions on this entry in DeaderThanDisco.Video Games?

• Modern military shooters were huge after the breakthrough smash of Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare and ruled over most of The Seventh Generation Of Console Video Games. largely because they were a place where most people would socially interact with each other. But just before the eighth generation hit, they started to suffer a decline because the market that used to play those games has moved away from it with the releases of smartphones and tablets (which allow for more social interaction). The massive oversaturation, unrelated games being saddled with their mechanics to try and Follow the Leader, heaps of Unfortunate Implications, and the release of more thoughtful and deconstructive shooters like Bioshock Infinite and Spec Ops: The Line, as well as the successes of recent old school-style shooters such as Wolfenstein: The New Order and Shadow Warrior (2013), also killed hopes that another audience would be attracted by them. The death of the Medal of Honor franchise with the failure of Warfighter, which helped codify most of the tropes that served as staples of the genre, was also a large loss. Even the two titans of the genre, Call of Duty and Battlefield, have begun to move away from the formula. It still exists but most would only be cult hits by modern standards.

I had previously deleted it as part of a massive culling of shoehorning / complaining in the Deader Than Disco example pages. User @hamza678 restored it, and to be fair to him, there is support for its restoration on the Discussion page, so it's not like he's edit-warring or going off on his own without consensus.

Here's the thing: I don't claim to be particularly plugged in to the FPS fandom. It's entirely possible that there's a big enough backlash against modern military shooters to qualify it for DTD status that I'm just not seeing from my limited perspective. And if that turns out to be the case, I'm happy to defer to more-informed opinions than my own.

But the way the example is written, it reads less as "this thing that used to be incredibly popular has now suffered near-universal backlash such that even the early entries from when it was still popular are reviled" and more as "the audience and industry moved on to other things."

I'm of a mind that, at minimum, it needs a rewrite to more clearly establish it as a legit example.

Thoughts?

Bringing this entry in for discussion:

• The first two series of Downton Abbey were highly acclaimed and regarded as the classy British show to be watching. Then starting in Series 3 it went into an irretrievable tailspin as several prominent actors grew dissatisfied with their roles and left, and Julian Fellowes' habit of waiting to see the actors play out the first half of each series before writing the second half bit him in the ass more and more with actors who'd signed on for just a few episodes unable to continue after he decided to enlarge the role. This combined into some incredibly awkward storytelling that soon had the show feeling more like an especially trashy soap than the prestige period piece it started out as, and it also didn't help that Fellowes compensated by delving more and more into the Scenery Porn of the upper class lifestyle, until he faced numerous accusations of trying to sell the Edwardian Era as the high point of British society which it should be returned to, entire class of wage slaves and all. By the time it ended, the show was largely viewed as a joke whose only unironic fans were the same elitist snobs as Fellowes.

The way it's written, this sounds more like Jumped the Shark. It even says "...than the prestige period piece it started out as," implying that even the writer still holds the early seasons in high regard. I'm thinking Not An Example?

I agree with your assessment.

Found this example on YMMV.Cee Lo Green:

• Deader Than Disco: His rape comments have seriously damaged his chances of scoring another hit.

Not enough context. "Damaged chances of another hit" =/= "nobody will admit to having liked their previous hits."

Ceelo Green has an entry in DeaderThanDisco.Hip Hop that has the opposite problem (which is shared by most of that page): it's a four-paragraph freaking essay.

Maybe something in between the two could be worked up?

Holy cow...that entire page needs a weed-whacker taken to it.

On DeaderThanDisco.Video Games, an entry was added for Mighty No. 9 claiming it as DtD before it even came out. It was deleted saying that surely we can wait until the game is actually out to judge. It was recently added back in saying "Now that the game's been out and judged, I think we can add this back in."

I disagree; I would argue that, if public opinion has truly turned that hard against the game pre-release, then it was never popular enough to be DtD in the first place, since DtD is "massively popular, then subject to near-universal backlash." I don't think "had a successful Kickstarter" is popular enough by itself to qualify as DtD; Kickstarter isn't exactly mainstream, and if you ask any but the most hardcore Megaman fans what they think of Mighty No. 9, they wouldn't even know what you were talking about.

If anything, it might be a Stillborn Franchise if it's intended to be a long-running series a la Megaman but doesn't get enough love to get a sequel, although even then, I'd say some critical distance is still called for before making that call.

Thoughts?

edited 20th Jun '16 11:19:08 AM by HighCrate

Yeah, I don't think that qualifies. At most it got a little bit of hype when it was originally announced, but it was never really popular. That would require there to be something out there that people like, not something they think they will like.

After thinking about it, I agree that Mighty No. 9 is looking like more of an example of a Stillborn Franchise or Tainted by the Preview than DTD. While people did lose faith in the game not long after the initial Kickstarter campaign, it technically was never popular to begin with because people already had low expectations of it before its release. There have been several instances where the initial trailer or teaser material made a work look good, only for later trailers and teaser material to turn people off of the work.

edited 20th Jun '16 1:07:16 PM by ADrago

That game's really recent, right? That doesn't seem like it'd fit "opinions have worsened over time." Dud on launch ≠ DTD in my opinion.

Especially if by popular you mean: a lot of people bought it, and then regretted it. That is the wrong type of popularity for DTD.

I think I'll join this thread. I like the DTD pages and have written a few entries myself, so I'd be happy to lend a hand.

There's some controversy going on over an entry on YMMV.Mass Effect 2. It's currently down and in Discussion, but posting a link here for record-keeping's sake.

Can someone trim the One Direction entry on Music? It's 4 paragraphs long.

edited 23rd Jun '16 7:13:40 PM by harryhenry

I know a LOT about music. I'll take a look at the music examples and offer my opinions on what needs to go and what should stay.

But we're cutting disco, right?

Sweet Jesus, the misuse of this trope in Music is pretty pervasive. I just managed to parse just the lead Music page - the spinoff pages for Country, Rock, and Disco are going to SUCK.

That being said, here come a few massive posts about what I think should stay and be cut. I'm identifying them by subject, not posting the entire entry.

Genres and Industry Trends

• "The Internet has stretched the music industry thin" - cut. The Internet has not killed music, and listening to music on C Ds is not seen as weird or otherwise unusual.
  • L Ps - cut. Adele just sold millions of actual physical C Ds. They aren't as popular anymore but they aren't dead.
  • Greatest Hits Collections - I'm iffy on this. On one hand, iTunes has definitely changed the landscape for music buying. On the other hand, the US is on Now 58, and SOMEONE has to be buying those.
  • Record stores - cut. Record stores are pretty dead but are almost universally regarded fondly by musicphiles and consumers.
  • "Internet takes out the middleman of record labels" - definite cut. Seeing as the only independent album to hit #1 was Macklemore's, we can safely say that record labels are not concerned with Internet proliferation of smaller artists.
  • "Shocking to parents music" - Cut. It's factually wrong; Miley Cyrus says hello!
• Digital Synthesizers - leaning cut. I'm not great with technical aspects of music, but I'm pretty sure the second bullet on this entry nullifies the entry.
  • Orchestra Hit - this is a good entry. Keep.
• Castrati - cut. This falls more under Moral Dissonance than anything.
• Charity Motivation Songs - there is a good entry in this mess. I say cut everything about We Are The World 2010 (as it seems to be written by a Bieber hater) and edit down the rest to be coherent. Keep.
• Intelligent drum'n'bass - Keep. Take out the last sentence about trip-hop, as a) it was never mainstream and b) Gorillaz alone keep the genre from ridicule.
• Easy Listening - if the snark is cut out, this is a good entry. Trim and keep.
• Beautiful music/Exotica - I think remove the mentions of Space Age Pop, as that's still fairly mainstream, but otherwise keep.
• Clean Adult Pop - Keep for sure.
• "R&B isn't played on urban radio" - Cut, and I genuinely cannot at someone who thinks RHYTHM AND BLUES is somehow a subject of mockery and hatred.
• Freestyle - I don't really know if there was backlash to freestyle. (New jack swing is mentioned here, and that would be deserving of an entry.) Iffy.
• Kakokyoku - I have no idea. Someone into Japanese music, help!
• Jpop - Cut.
• Gregorian chant - if this is expanded by someone more knowledgeable, this could fit well.
• Jazz fusion - keep. My god Keep. KENNY G >/
• Ambient space music - cut. I don't even know what this person is rambling about. The idea that Electronica was discriminated against bc of 9/11 is one of the most bizarre musical assertions I've ever seen.
• 8-track - as the proud owner of an 8-track player... yeah keep, they're kitsch personified.

Next post: Male Solo Artists tab!

edited 25th Jun '16 9:04:20 AM by LargoQuagmire

Male Solo Artists

• Avicii - cut. This trope is not meant to tear down a one-hit wonder with health problems.
• Crazy Frog - I like the entry, but it's more about the mascot than the singing. Is there somewhere else this would go?
• Pat Boone - keep.
• Chris Brown - Cut. Look, Chris Brown is a human garbage fire. He beat up my idol Frank Ocean for being bisexual; I would no think twice about sending Brown into a Hunger Games. However, for all that sane people hate him with a passion, his music is still very played and his albums sell well, despite not being the smashes they were before he mutilated Rhianna. He is the embodiment of a Tyson Zone celebrity, and doesn't belong here.
• Liberace - speaking of terrible people! Keep, though. The snark, the hatred, it's all there.
• Psy - If we are okay with limiting it to his US fame, I'm fine with this entry being trimmed and kept. He is still a major Korean star.
• Shabba Ranks - I don't know enough about Jamaican dance hall to know if Ranks' career was destroyed AND there was lasting backlash. I'm leaning keep, based on the fact that apparently the whole genre changed motivations afterwards. Any clarity is helpful.
• DJ Ten Walls - unlike Shabba, I'm feeling cut here. This seems more like his career was instantly Overshadowed by Controversy. The note that he apologized and is trying a comeback also makes me leery of having him here.
• Robin Thicke - This needs a massive trim, but is a glaring keep. I find it funny that the entry doesn't even mention what most people mock him for - he didn't write Blurred Lines at all, because he was drunk and high on cough syrup!

Next post: Female Solo Artists!

edited 25th Jun '16 9:15:38 AM by LargoQuagmire

Female Solo Artists

• Michelle Branch - cut. I don't know that people would look at you weird fr liking Michelle Branch. She just fell into obscurity.
• Anita Bryant - iffy. I know she's a huge subject of hatred and scorn in the gay community that used to love her, but I don't think that qualifying that is on mission for the trope. I think she's pretty hated in straight America NOW, but during the 70s, many people agreed with her campaign to keep gas from teaching children. (She sucks.)
• Ciara - cut. She still gets very good critical notices and is more forgotten than hated.
• Nelly Furtado - cut. See Michelle Branch; same thing here.
• Jewel - cut, same as Nelly and Michelle.
• Natalia Kills - I think this is a keep, but I can see where others would disagree. The part about her husband should be cut no matter what.
• Avril Lavigne - trim it down, but keep. Hello Kitty needs to be a part of the entry, as that was the main thing that destroyed her culturally.
• Ashlee Simpson - trim and keep. SNL did a number on her.
  • Simpson Family - blaming Ashlee for their end of that dynasty is really stupid and stretching it. (Paris Hilton and the Kardashians did more to end them than a lip sync flub.) Cut.
• Tila Tequila - I think she would count, but I think moving her to Live Action TV would be smarter, as most know her from the reality show she was on.

Next: Bands, and that monster 1D entry.

Bands

• Comedian Harmonists - definite cut, and this entry seems really tasteless to me.
• GRL - another definite cut, and another somewhat tasteless entry. Pro tip: caring more about the relevance of a band, and not, say, their Nazi persecution or that one member hung themselves, comes off really terribly!
• Jonas Brothers - I dunno. I'm leaning keep, but it definitely needs to be trimmed. We don't need a full paragraph about where the Jo Bros are now. It may also help to cut out the Internet specific backlash and mention, instead, the South Park episode, which does a good job of illustrating everything that made people laugh at/be super disturbed by the band.
• Milli Vanilli - GIRL YOU KNOW IT'S KEEP
• One Direction - First of all, cut this whole thing. The Internet is one thing - the internet hates all boy bands. It's the INTERNET. But they're one of the best selling bands of the 2000s, and even without Zayn had a #1 album before disbanding. Even beyond that, they had strong critical support. The fans may be loons but the general public never really hated the band - and clearly still doesn't, as the band members get regular non-mocking press. It'd be like saying Fall Out Boy is Deader Than Disco. It makes absolutely no logical sense. Secondly, this entry reads like a fawning love letter until the last sentence, where they're called "lame". Okay, then, confused troper, whatever you say.
• Osmond Family - keep, but maybe trim the end fawning over Donny Osmond's solo career.
• Spice Girls - keep. I think expanding would help, as a huge part of their DTD status was bc of how overexposed they were - they had crisps with their faces on them!
• The Wanted - cut. One-hit wonders with ego problems can't all be listed here.

edited 25th Jun '16 9:34:58 AM by LargoQuagmire

Yeah, a lot of the "examples" are just things that aren't as popular anymore. It needs to be ridiculed and/or hated. "Not popular" isn't the same as "disliked". "Not popular" is a zero on the popularity scale. "Disliked" is on the negative side. This trope requires something far to the negative side.

Most technological "examples" are basically just something that got a better version, and people moved to that because it's just better. It doesn't say anything about the old thing being something that's mocked or hated.

The last two tabs! After this I'm taking a break before tackling the subpages.

Songs

• "Material Girl" - cut. This entry is literally someone taking a commentator to task for interpreting the song differently from Madonna. Even considering the song on its own merits, it doesn't count, as it receives regular play on classics and 80s stations, not to mention clubs and dancehalls.
• "Sugar Sugar" - leaning keep. I like the quote but don't think we need it'd entirety.
• "Baby It's Cold Outside" - cut. It has become more famous from the unfortunate implications nowadays, but is still played regularly during holiday in the US.
• Band Aid II/20 - the only reason I lean cut is bc this is already covered by Charity Motivation Song in the first section of the page.
• "Christmas Shoes" - definite keep.
• "Woman" - I have no clue what this is. Help.
• "Call On Me" - cut. It's a song that fell into obscurity and an overrated video being reevaluated later.

Fictional Examples

The only example doesn't count, so I say delete the folder.

Woo. That was ABSURD. And we only have a billion more pages to go! Input is really necessary here, but I think most people would agree with me on 90% of my judgments. The only contentious one I see is One Direction, tbh.

Fully agree with Another Duck.

I also do most of my troping on my phone, but I think we need to make Sandboxes for this, rather than just start blanket cutting entries.

That's some great work there, Largo Quagmire.