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Total posts: [63]
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Duplicate Trope (Page Action Crowner 2014-05-19): Ghost Shipping get usage counts

 1 Larkmarn, Wed, 14th May '14 7:27:31 AM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
Ghost Shipping, as written, seems to be identical to Boy Meets Ghoul. They're both about "the undead gets into a romantic relationship with someone alive." The only difference I can spot in their descriptions is that Ghost Shipping mentions that it can be canon or fanon.

From the names, I'd think Ghost Shipping is a YMMV thing about the fandom pairing a living character with one who's canonically dead, either by ignoring that they're dead, or bringing them back/making them undead.

As written, they are quite identical. The examples on the page are split on the matter, the vast majority being plain Boy Meets Ghoul and a fair number of "Boy Meets Ghoul is a common ship in the fandom."

First ten wicks:

So... yeah. Pretty redundant. And it's not as though Ghost Shipping is limited to ghosts, as there are plenty of vampire examples.

 2 Fighteer, Wed, 14th May '14 7:42:24 AM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
I support the idea of either merging these tropes or making Ghost Shipping into a Shipping trope whereas Boy Meets Ghoul would remain objective.

 3 Septimus Heap, Wed, 14th May '14 7:44:13 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Christmas worms
Some of Ghost Shipping's links look YMMV to me, but while I don't like using "boy" for men in general rather than under-18ers specifically, folding Ghost Shipping into Boy Meets Ghoul seems best.

Merge!

 5 Another Duck, Wed, 14th May '14 12:21:35 PM from Stockholm Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
I think any trope with shipping in its name should be YMMV, since shipping is fundamentally a fan reaction. Or at least that's how the word is most often used.

Don't have a problem with the other using the word "boy". It's perhaps more specific than it needs to be, but I don't think it's causing trouble, and it sounds better like that.

If Ghost Shipping was made distinct and YMMV, what would remain on it? I'm not opposed to either that or a merge.
Check out my fanfiction!
 6 Willbyr, Wed, 14th May '14 12:27:40 PM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Anime-ted
[up] I lean that way too.
 7 Fighteer, Wed, 14th May '14 12:53:19 PM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Seems we're drawing close to a crowner to decide between those two options, as no others have been proposed and there is uniform agreement that the tropes are identical as currently used.

 8 Larkmarn, Wed, 14th May '14 4:23:29 PM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
Would Ghost Shipping as a YMMV be tropeable, though? The definition that I thought it was when I read the name (fans ship a character who is canonically dead with a live one) seems like it would be, but it isn't used anywhere. The actually YMMV definition that sees some use on the page and elsewhere (fans ship an undead character with a live one) doesn't seem tropeworthy, to me.

 9 Fighteer, Wed, 14th May '14 4:26:36 PM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Why don't we sort the existing uses by category, then?

 10 nrjxll, Wed, 14th May '14 5:14:19 PM Relationship Status: Not war
[up][up]I'm inclined to agree. That's just shipping but more specific, and we already have enough of that.

 11 Sand Josieph, Thu, 15th May '14 1:42:58 AM from Grand Galloping Galaday Relationship Status: Brony
Bigonkers! is Magic
When I first created the trope page it was originally intended to be about fans shipping characters with dead characters but it seems to have gained a "life" of its own. It seems to have gained two different meanings: one is the one I originally wrote and the other has to do with when a living character's love is of the ethereal ghost variety. Like a ghost story where one lover turns out to be dead all along.

edited 15th May '14 1:47:54 AM by SandJosieph

♥♥II'GSJQGDvhhMKOmXunSrogZliLHGKVMhGVmNhBzGUPiXLYki'GRQhBITqQrrOIJKNWiXKO♥♥
 12 Fighteer, Thu, 15th May '14 6:42:46 AM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
That latter is covered by Boy Meets Ghoul, which is why people are getting confused.

I'm pretty sure that shipping live and dead (or undead) characters is a phenomenon that can be documented. It's at least as valid as any other shipping subtrope, anyway. I think the whole business can die in a fire, personally, but that doesn't mean I get the final say in the matter.

edited 15th May '14 6:43:59 AM by Fighteer

Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
Seems to me like the best thing to do is move all canonical examples to Boy Meets Ghoul and make this one fanfiction-only. And if there are no non-canonical examples left, then burn it to the ground.
It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird
 14 Fighteer, Thu, 15th May '14 8:37:41 AM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Any reason not to put up a crowner now?

Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
[up]None that I can think of.
It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird
 16 nrjxll, Thu, 15th May '14 2:21:01 PM Relationship Status: Not war
I can see shipping a character with another character who is canonically dead as a distinct subtrope, because it represents a similar type of "impossible" shipping to something like Crossover Ship. But "Boy Meets Ghoul in fanfic" doesn't sound tropeworthy.

 17 m8e, Thu, 15th May '14 2:32:19 PM from Sweden Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
I have to agree with that, Boy Meets Ghoul in fanfic is just Boy Meets Ghoul. Ghost Shipping is for characters that have died in canon, but somehow is still alive and shipped after that in the fanfic.

 18 Another Duck, Fri, 16th May '14 10:26:44 AM from Stockholm Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
So, what options do we have?

  • Merge Ghost Shipping into Boy Meets Ghoul.
  • Turn Ghost Shipping into a fanfic/fan-reaction trope.
  • Turn Ghost Shipping into a trope about shipping canonically dead characters (i.e. characters who canonically would be unable to have a relationship due to one or both of them being dead).
Check out my fanfiction!
 19 Fighteer, Fri, 16th May '14 11:07:56 AM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
I think that the latter two are basically the same thing, right? What is shipping if not a fan reaction?

 20 m8e, Fri, 16th May '14 12:36:41 PM from Sweden Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
Fanfics are works too. If Boy Meets Ghoul happens in a work it's simply Boy Meets Ghoul. Being a fanwork or not makes no difference there.

  • Making a canonically dead character come back as a vampire/ghost/whatever and shipping that character is both Boy Meets Ghoul and Ghost Shipping.
  • Having that character instead coming back as a normal person is only Ghost Shipping.
  • If the character is canonically a vampire/ghost/whatever and get shipped it's Boy Meets Ghoul and normal shipping, as the shipping isn't 'impossible' due too death.

edited 16th May '14 12:58:07 PM by m8e

 21 Fighteer, Fri, 16th May '14 12:53:49 PM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Let's be clear here. Shipping is an Audience Reaction — it's fans making up relationships based on their feelings and/or personal preferences. If they write it in a fanfic, it's still shipping with respect to the parent work, although it is not shipping within the fic itself.

Boy Meets Ghoul, as written, is a relationship trope. It's objective. If, in a work, a character has a romantic relationship with someone who's dead or undead, it's this trope. If the relationship exists only in fans' minds, it's not this trope.

A trope cannot be about both things. It has to make up its mind. That's why Ho Yay, Les Yay, etc., were such a mess for so long.

edited 16th May '14 1:10:02 PM by Fighteer

 22 m8e, Fri, 16th May '14 1:10:39 PM from Sweden Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
I'm talking about fanfic examples. so yes, if it only exists in fans' minds it's not that trope, if it exist in a fanfic it's an example of the trope in that fanfic.

 23 Fighteer, Fri, 16th May '14 1:17:37 PM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Agreed, although we really have to be clear about the relationship between the fic and the parent when it comes to tropes.

Alice is alive, Bob is dead (or undead).

 24 m8e, Fri, 16th May '14 1:45:51 PM from Sweden Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
Quite not agreeing with 2 and 3. It's Boy Meets Ghoul and normal Shipping.

I think the confusion(maybe just mine...) comes from Ghost Shipping (as Sand Josieph intended it) and Boy Meets Ghoul uses two different definitions of dead.

In Ghost Shipping the character must be dead For Real in the parent work. The character simply doesn't exist anymore. Not as a ghost, zombie or anything. To ship this character in any way the fanfic writer have to change the characters living status(pun?) by bringing them back from the dead, having the death never happen or some such. Basically, the core of Ghost Shipping is that the character's death have been changed to make the ship possible.

In Boy Meets Ghoul 'dead' means being a ghost, angel, spirit and so on (and undead is vampires, zombies et.c. as always.)

edited 16th May '14 2:02:28 PM by m8e

 25 Fighteer, Fri, 16th May '14 2:04:40 PM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
I think that, while whether they are dead-dead or undead-dead may be a valid distinction, it's not the distinction we're making here. We're talking about In-Universe relationships versus Audience Reactions. Otherwise it's four separate tropes, not two separate ones.

edited 16th May '14 2:04:57 PM by Fighteer

Page Action: Ghost Shipping
19th May '14 2:07:39 PM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
Ghost Shipping as currently presented is too similar to Boy Meets Ghoul, with many overlapping examples. Further, Ghost Shipping is being used for both In Universe relationships between living and dead/undead characters and fan Shipping of such relationships.

As a note, The Lost Lenore covers the case of a character perpetually mourning the death of a loved one who is not coming back.
Total posts: 63
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