Needs Help: Western Animation.Toon Makers Sailor Moon

Total posts: [86]
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26 AnotherDuck1st Aug 2012 12:05:22 AM from Stockholm , Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
"It's essentially like having a work page for a commercial."

Like The Man Your Man Could Smell Like, HeadOn, or other Notable Campaigns?note 
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TV Tropes' very wikibot
I would also prefer to keep the page.
[up]x3 If this were Wikipedia, someone using notability as anything but the criteria wouldn't be taken seriously. At least, from my experience.

Anyway, I agree with Telcontar on post 22. The only released thing is this promo itself. Other information regarding the show would fall under "unpublished" stuff.

edited 1st Aug '12 11:32:46 AM by ThatHuman

Why? We know that the episode exists somewhere out there, and we know that it made use of certain tropes.

Like I mentioned earlier, this is kind of like trying to delete all the tropes relating to the lost parts of The Trojan Cycle. We know they existed, and we know some of the tropes they used - what's the problem?

edited 1st Aug '12 12:25:22 PM by abk0100

In uffish thought
Can the episodes be accessed by the general public? If not, then that falls under Unpublished Works, I reckon.

I know that There Is No Such Thing as Notability. I don't think we should trope an unreleased work based on guesses and some knowledge and pass it off as any other work page.
31 ccoa1st Aug 2012 12:46:09 PM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
We can, however, have a page about the promo, which was released. The only trope I see that's speculation is Handicapped Badass, the rest are presumably in the promo or supported by Word of God.

edited 1st Aug '12 12:47:33 PM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
Unpublished Works does not seem to cover commercial works which were canceled before release from its description. Despite the name, it seems limited to unpublished amateur works, especially fan works.
[up][up][up] That's all I want to keep - things supported by the promo or by word of god. If it's just speculation about what would have been in the series, by all means, get rid of it.
35 jkbeta1st Aug 2012 03:21:06 PM from right behind you , Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Keeping the promo is fine - it is a (very short) work after all.
@ccoa: I thought tropes found under Word of God and such shouldn't be listed? I mean, WOG itself is listed under trivia and all. A trope is something that happens in a work. If what a creator said can be covered like actual content, then an outline for an unwritten book in a series can be troped, even if it were unreleased.

[up]x3 why do we need to judge professional works separately from amatuer ones? Isn't the fricking point of There Is No Such Thing as Notability so that inclusion criteria is the same for works by anyone?

edited 1st Aug '12 10:16:14 PM by ThatHuman

[up]I'm not talking about theory. I'm talking about the actual description on that page. The definition says"Stories and series that only exist on the author's hard drive, or worse, in their head. Pretty much the only evidence of their existence is one editor's entry pimping on our website."

This description does not cover works which were promoted in official venues, but canceled, shows which had footage shots, but were never aired, and so on. It only covers works which do not exist and no one would know they were even planned except for this site.

edited 2nd Aug '12 12:20:41 AM by AceOfSevens

38 ccoa2nd Aug 2012 07:39:12 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Word of God by itself is trivia. Word of God supporting the existence/use of a trope (not trivia) is perfectly fine. It's used all the time for upcoming works where an interview reveals details.

edited 2nd Aug '12 7:45:31 AM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
[up] But those aren't existing use of tropes if it never becomes part of the published/released material. "Use" of a trope means "it was part of a published material", no? For upcoming stuff, makes sense, but for something that will never be released, well, then it is just WOG by itself (or What Could Have Been, but that's also not supposed to be listed), since it will never join the released material.

I mean, if we we're talking about a TV show that was cancelled before the last episode was made, and the director said that the ending would've been a Downer Ending, would the show's page have an entry for Downer Ending, despite no ending actually existing, due to the show being Cut Short?

[up][up] I think in theory the site should have the same criteria for professioanl and amatuer works. i.e. was it actually released?

edited 2nd Aug '12 9:03:21 AM by ThatHuman

40 ccoa2nd Aug 2012 09:14:18 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
I would see no problem with the trope page having:

As long as there's enough information to say how the trope would have been used, I'm not seeing a problem.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
[up][up]I would agree in principle, but only if the definition used for 'released' is very broad. A film screened at a film festival, for instance, should count even if it was never distributed otherwise. While this situation is naturally very rare, I can think of one such example readily. As specified on John Waters:

Lost Forever: While not lost in the same way as, say, London After Midnight, Waters refuses to release his first three movies in any format, and they have not appeared since their original showings.

Despite having been never released commercially, I would contend that Roman Candles would be theoretically eligible for a work page if anyone actually knew anything about it and cared enough to make one.

And as such, I agree with most of the rest of the thread that only tropes which can be observed in or reasonably inferred from the video shown at the con.
[up][up] Well, if we extrapolate* from that, a show which only had a pilot, or even a fanfic that was never uploaded beyond the first chapter can have loads of trope entries simply based on what the writer said they planned to do. Not sure if that was strawmanning but well... it could happen, considering the vast range of material this site covers.

[up] Wait, wouldn't what you say in the last paragraph not include the creator's word? I mean, the interview is not part of the promo clip shown at the convention.

edited 3rd Aug '12 1:56:17 PM by ThatHuman

43 AnotherDuck4th Aug 2012 02:51:10 AM from Stockholm , Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
Point about this one is: There is a video people on The Internet have seen. If they can spot a trope in what they've seen (of the work, not discussions about it), it's okay, and it's just as much of a published work as your average fanfic or fanvid.

Now, if the creators have pitched in about their plans for it, it's not published, as that's just what they say and not necessarily what would've been. So, you could perhaps stick all those under a heading of What Could Have Been. That would differentiate what you actually can infer from the work, and what the creators intended.

edited 4th Aug '12 2:52:02 AM by AnotherDuck

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44 Rebochan7th Sep 2012 10:06:07 PM from Soaking up Rays
I've got Sunshine!
I was seriously questioning the inclusion of this myself. We have, literally, no idea what this would have been. None. We have an interview done a decade later that talked about something that may have existed. Otherwise, the only evidence that the show exists is a pilot that may or may not exist and nobody has seen. The "tropes" as they were are for a work that didn't happen and the only reason anyone knows about it is because of a grainy fan video shot at a convention in the mid-90s with no context for the content.

Even advertising campaigns have something to go off of. This has nothing. There is no reason for this page to exist. It's tropes can be safely blended into the Sailor Moon page under What Could Have Been and nothing of value would be lost.

edited 7th Sep '12 10:06:29 PM by Rebochan - Filthy Digital Ramblings, musings on media.
Your argument for cutting the page is full of exaggerations and half-truths and that leaves me with no way to respond to it.

All I can do is repeat my own argument: We have enough information about this to make for a description with plenty of detail, and an okay amount of tropes. That's all a work page should require.

edited 8th Sep '12 11:01:54 AM by abk0100

46 Rebochan8th Sep 2012 11:56:20 PM from Soaking up Rays
I've got Sunshine!
Where did I exagerrate or lie?

Where is this show's pilot? Can you produce it? Because if you can't produce anything else except the out-of-context music video, then we are literally listing tropes for a show that does not exist.

I don't think it's falling into a notability trap to demand that a show actually exist before we give it a trope page. We have no idea beyond speculation from one person how these tropes would work, if they would have stayed. We wouldn't give a trope page to a fanfic that hasn't been written simply because a single paragraph exists and the author talked about what she might have put into it.

edited 9th Sep '12 12:02:01 AM by Rebochan - Filthy Digital Ramblings, musings on media.
47 AnotherDuck9th Sep 2012 12:55:04 AM from Stockholm , Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
We don't have nothing at all about this. That's a straight out lie. If that was actually true, everything on the page would be completely made up. It's not.

edited 9th Sep '12 12:56:18 AM by AnotherDuck

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48 Rebochan9th Sep 2012 09:58:29 AM from Soaking up Rays
I've got Sunshine!
We don't have nothing at all about this. That's a straight out lie. If that was actually true, everything on the page would be completely made up. It's not.

We do not have:

  1. The "pilot", which even our sourced interview points out was not a "pilot" but a "presentation piece".
  2. The actual show.

What we have and what the article even states we have is:

  1. A grainy music video filmed by a convention goer that provides no context for the footage except it was worked on by a guy named Allen Hastings who the sourced interview claims didn't actually work on it.
  2. A single interview with someone who worked on it done years after the fact talking about something he worked on where he couldn't even remember all of the character's names.

So yea, this is a trope page for a show that doesn't exist and I am not lying by pointing this out. It is, at best, a pitch. We do not make pages for media that didn't even get as far as finishing their pilots. Someone brought up advertising, but all of our advertising pages are based on ads that actually aired in their entirety and thus do not involve any speculative troping. Someone brought up fanfic, but as I said above, this is the equivalent of making a trope page for a fanfic that hasn't been written but the author wrote a list of ideas of what she plans to do. This is the equivalent of making a trope page for concept art.

By the way, the interview being linked as a source is not the actual interview and I noticed the blog post actually invented things that were not actually covered in Anime Fringe. So on top of the other problems with this trope page, one of the "sources" of the non-existant show contains tropes that don't actually happen in the tiny little piece of an incomplete work that we have. Here's that actual Interview with Rocky Solotoff by Adam Arnold (yea, that one) and the original article about the trailer. The blog the current article links to made up a comment about the characters being different "nationalities", when the interview clearly stated "ethnicities".

As for the tropes on the page?

Expository Theme Tune is stated in the sourced interview to not be the theme song, just part of the music video. 80sHair even admits that it's not 80s hair. Five-Token Band tries to label the ethnicities of the characters, but we don't actually know any of the characters identities aside from Sailor Moon because the song explicitly calls identifies her. The interview linked in the piece admits that some of the girls may have had their names changed. Handicapped Badass admits they have no idea how the girl in the wheelchair would have played out aside from lasers on the magic wheelchair. Merchandise-Driven, even the sourced interview says that he thought the boards might have been toy concepts. Multinational Team is completely wrong, as noted above, so that shouldn't be on the page. Old Shame is incorrect - Solotoff pointed out he wasn't happy with the animation, but explicitly stated it's because it wasn't finished animation. They would have done a different style had their been a commissioned series.

The remaining tropes are accurate to what little bit of stuff we can speculate on, but that's just it - we're still guessing at things. The Space Sailing trope is a guess about why they might have chosen to have the characters literally sailing in space.

And amazingly, the only trope this whole non-show needs to fall under, What Could Have Been is empty. - Filthy Digital Ramblings, musings on media.
Yes, you could jam all the info into a What Could Have Been example, but why would that be an improvement?

edited 10th Sep '12 6:17:54 AM by abk0100

[up][up]I'm pretty sure that music video is the presentation piece.

Page Action: Toon Makers Sailor Moon
13th Sep '12 7:52:36 AM
What would be the best way to fix the page?

Total posts: 86
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