It's super effective.
She's almost certainly a Base Breaker (which although it doesn't permit examples on the page, does allow them on work's YMMV sheets. I never really got that.), rather than a Scrappy. Maybe that's what I gathered though.
Can we move off the Doctor Who discussion for a bit, please? It's preventing any attempt to talk about the trope in general.
It's super effective.
Before we do so, does anyone seriously object if I were to remove the Doctor Who example given all that was said?
Lost in Space
Nuke the Doctor Who examples.
I still think the problem here is that people are shoehorning stuff in that doesn't fit. Let's fix the examples and then see what we're left with.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ok, here they are for posterity. Move them as you see fit:
- Rose Tyler was a very strange and base-breaking case of this. During Series 1, most people liked and accepted her, but throughout the second, third and fourth the writers started putting her on a pedestal. Gradually, the writers changed her from a flawed and believable character to an infallible saint who was The Doctor's one true love, even continuing after she'd ceased appearing as a regular. Basically, the shilling was what turned her into the Creators' Pet.
- Then there's River Song. Despite the Doctor's dislike of violence, he approves of her use of guns and rarely complains about her threatening people. However, River was quite a good example of an Ensemble Dark Horse, until the end of Series 6 where she nearly destroyed time itself. The Doctor was furious with her, had to marry her to fix the problem (and continues to act as her husband). River was sent to prison... but she is revealed to break out it of anytime she wants. Like Rose, she's an example of a character who was popular until being shilled (her arc in Series 6 alone ended up breaking the base).
I can take a pass at one of the categories when I get off work tonight.
By the way, I think it may be useful to put the criteria on the subpages as well moving forward, as a helpful reminder.
Yea...I had to work late >_< I'll get at this later in the week, sorry guys.
So that we are perfectly clear: We are just cleaning this up and not changing the definition or anything else, right?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
That appears to be the goal at this point in time unless there's any objections.
Took a first pass at a cleanup, picked Western Animation first. Made a lot of cuts since a good number of them were really just "The Scrappy with screentime" and they already had Scrappy entries covering the same points. I did want some feedback on a few of these and if anyone knows these better than me and thinks its a bad cut, call it out so it can become a less confusing entry.
Elmyra: I pulled it because it seems to be mainly based on a lot of people not liking Pinky Elmyra And The Brain...except even the writers hated it. It was the network's idea. She definitely ticks of boxes 1 and 3 for the unnecessary Character Focus, but the writers loathed her and the network seemed to really just want them to write a silly sitcom as opposed to a show about Elmyra. She never got any Character Shilling and got mocked by the theme song. But she seems to be really skirting this trope due to the Executive Meddling. On the other hand...the retooled show actually won a bunch of awards, which seems to challenge the idea that it was actually a bad move.
The Venture Bros.: The Moppets are only on the show because the creators know the fans hate them and deliberately gave them more scenes to torment them. Its a Sadist Show. The writer acknowledgement seems to give them more credence, but at the same time, the characters in the universe despise them and they only got Character Focus after fans expressed loud displeasure.
Family Guy: Took off Herbert, since it seems like he's not getting any Shilling or anymore Character Focus than any of hte other long-time running gags on the show. I'm really surprised Brian isn't on there.
Lisa Simpson: Cautious keep because I haven't seen the Simpsons regularly since about past season 10, but I definitely remember her slide out of having meaningful flaws and her push into becoming the Lone Sane Man. Any other Simpsons fans able to balance this? I did edit the entry that discussed the Japanese reception since while Lisa being more popular there is relevant, Bart and Homer aren't Creator's Pet just because of a culture gap.
Lucky: I actually didn't watch the show during the Lucky era. I remember he was loathed, but that seems to be a regular Scrappy. The entry seems to be missing criteria 4, as it suggests that everyone except Luann hated him.
Drawn Together: I actually never watched this show due to loathing it, but the entry seems to be suggesting Captain Hero was actually not getting shilled. I haven't pulled it yet since I am far more out of my element though.
The Clone Wars: Provided no information whatsoever on the character's qualifications. Cut for that.
Rug Rats: Pulled Kimi since apparently it was causing natter fights, though Kimi is a Scrappy. I didn't watch a lot of the Kimi stuff, but when I did poke my head in, I actually noticed she got left in the background a lot for a character that was supposed to be such a big deal. Left Taffy, but I don't know a lot about her.
Ben 10: Never watched it. It sounds like a legit entry...except I checked Scrappy and there's no entries for either character. There are entries for other characters that overshadowed them though. Seems like it's missing the most important piece and just focusing on the Character Focus.
She-Hulk: Sounds like a Scrappy Entry, not this. She's not on The Scrappy though. Pulled.
The page is now pretty short. Gonna see if I can fit one more before bed. By the way, thanks mods for adding Mako to the page twice in the notes.
edited 21st Aug '12 12:34:49 AM by Rebochan
I am giving up my lunch hour to hit up Live-Action TV because I've noticed it exploding in the last few days. Same questions as before, and there are a lot of shows I haven't watched on here. A lot of these characters were cut because they have no entry of them as The Scrappy, so that seems to suggest a lot of people are still having trouble distinguishing a character with a lot of screentime from a Creator's Pet.
Star Trek Deep Space Nine: ...I'm going to be a bad Trekkie and admit I did not watch Deep Space Nine so I cannot comment on Vic Fontaine. Did he get Character Shilling? He seems to fit every other criteria, though he has no The Scrappy entry so I pulled him over that.
Supernatural: There doesn't seem to be anything suggesting in that entry that she got unreasonable Character Focus or Character Shilling, and the natter suggests she was Executive Meddling and not actually included due to writerly love. Can anyone elucidate?
Voyager: ...someone seriously included something that wasn't a character. That is all. Also I didn't watch Voyager, but did Neelix get any shilling?
Battlestar Galactica (Reimagined): Oh yea, I have not seen any of this show, but neither of its characters listed are on The Scrappy, but the entry on Dualla would seem to be a misplaced Scrappy entry.
Coronation Street: Not one of them has a The Scrappy entry.
24: Was there any Character Shilling? Otherwise, she's just The Scrappy.
Sesame Street: Okay. I realize a lot of adults despise Elmo and he does have a The Scrappy entry. However...Elmo is really popular with the shows target audience of preschoolers, and his increased presence was in response to children responding well to the character and buying his merchandise by the truckload. It seems to be missing a proper fan backlash outside of adults who are a Periphery Fanbase at best. I'm leaving his entry on the page with reservations for now, but I'd like some feedback.
Hamish Macbeth: No The Scrappy entry. The entry itself just reads like a straight up The Scrappy entry.
Lana Lang: Is pretty much the patron saint of this trope next to Wesley Crusher, but I cut down the length of it because it went well past documenting the problem and flew off into complaining. Aside from that, this is probably one of the better examples of how entries on these pages should go.
Andromeda: Haven't seen it, but the entry points out that the character in question is the main character. He also had no Scrappy entry.
Drake And Josh: Didn't watch the show, but she appears to be a main character with no shilling, just a Karma Houdini with a big Hatedom.
Charmed: Way too brief on Phoebe and I haven't watched the show so I can't comment beyond what's in the entry.
Dawsons Creek: Had no Scrappies or genuine reasons for including the characters.
Buffy: ...please don't kill me, I really didn't watch a lot of Buffy past season 3 and I'm just going off the entries. I know Dawn was really loathed, though her entry here doesn't seem to justify her getting included - did she get shilled? The Kennedy entry appears to meet the criteria, though again, not seeing the Shilling.
The L Word: Justified her as a scrappy, but not much else. Haven't watched the show.
Greys: Don't watch it. Izzie seems to count, might need some additional info. Meredith can't count since by virtue of being the title character, she's not capable of unreasonable Character Focus. Also, not a scrappy.
The Wire: Not scrappies.
I had to stop due to time constraints, but I'll be back if nobody else wants to tackle it.
You're cutting characters just because they aren't on The Scrappy? That doesn't seem like a good idea. It's not like The Scrappy is any more of an authority than this trope is.
Ravenous Sophovore
But the character has to be The Scrappy to qualify, and if you don't know the example personally, how else is there to tell except to check the work page and The Scrappy page to see if they're listed?
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
This. The point of the trope is that the character in question is favored by the writers despite the hate from their fans, and the show is constantly wasting time trying to convince the fans to like this character in spite of that. One of the examples that this thread agreed to cut was someone that has a vocal hatedom, but actual character polls and critical reception revealed she was one of the most popular in the show.
Speaking of this, uh...so I can't help but notice an ungodly long personal rant from troper bizarro that's been growing over the last 24 hours about Quinn from How I Met Your Mother. Quinn may qualify somehow, but I don't watch that show. She's not on The Scrappy yet, which would get it cut for this cleanup project, but since that one troper has been spending such a ridiculous amount of time on the personal essay that is that trope entry...I think I'd really like some help from other tropers in parsing whether she's a good entry (and thus needs to be added to The Scrappy), or whether this is just one very angry troper.
As someone who watches How I Met Your Mother, I'd like to add my two cents worth. I think the Quinn example should be deleted. I don't go the HIMYM forums much and I don't know how most fans feel about her (I'm largely indifferent to her), but I definitely don't think she's any kind of Creator's Pet. After the main cast tries to break up her and Barney, they become more accepting of their relationship and are friendly and supportive of her, but that's it. I can't recall anything like the Character Shilling Don got. And the episode where Barney proposes to her also reveals that the bride at Barney's future wedding isn't going to be her, but Robin. So at this point, after less than half a season, Quinn's relationship with Barney is already Doomed by Canon.
"and if you don't know the example personally, how else is there to tell except to check the work page and The Scrappy page to see if they're listed?"
What kind of reasoning is that? "There's no easy way to tell, so we may as well use the completely arbitrary standard of whether or not someone happened to add it to the scrappy page before someone added it to the Creators Pet page." You may as well just flip a coin.
I don't really see this trope as being useful if we're going to start randomly hacking away at it, so I guess I'll just stay out of the rest of the clean-up.
edited 1st Sep '12 10:35:51 AM by abk0100
The Mistress
what do you people think about ryoma`s position in anime and manga? pessornally i am not sure,on one hand while a lot of people hate him and he is a bit of a jerk i do not think he reaches jerk sue levels or god mode sue levels considering he never really hurt anyone.
also he is the protagonist of the story.
"Please crush me with your heels Esdeath-sama!
Lost in Space
I don't think it is possible for the main protagonist to be a Creator's Pet. For one thing, it fails the Character Focus test, as it is supposed to get focus.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
I think the only way would be by a protagonist getting more focus after dropping in popularity.
Also, since this is cleanup now, do we move it to Special Efforts?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
I've actually never done a cleanup project, so I'm not sure. My work schedule has been ruining my time to devote to this, but three day weekend, so we can get back to pruning the bad and perfecting the good.
Pretty simple, really. If I can't find an easy reference for whether the character has a sufficient hatedom, I pull it for the time being and say why. If a character really hasn't been added to The Scrappy by now, that usually sets off a red flag for me since that's usually ground zero for character complaints. If members of that show's fandom catch it and can show how that character really is The Scrappy, it goes back on the page (possibly with a rework) and we get a The Scrappy entry out of it too. That's why these are all supposed to go in discussion, and why I'm archiving them here and asking for input.
The Mistress
got it! i will remove him them.
edit1:also what do you people think about the inuyasha example? on one hand i can get where the guy who said that comes from on the other hand, from the looks of it, it seems she only appeared in one episode.
edited 2nd Sep '12 5:58:33 AM by SaintDeltora
"Please crush me with your heels Esdeath-sama!
No, the other one.
I removed Abby from NCIS. She's a popular character where I've heard talking about the show.
Check out my fanfiction!
Some of the Professional Wrestling examples need to be removed. Personally I don't see if they count as an example if crowds cheer for them so that would count out Sheamus, Kelly Kelly and Triple H to some degree. A lot of the examples on that page seem to be ranting about wrestlers they don't like.
No, the other one.
For wrestling, I'd count the crowd over what some troper claims, unless they can actually provide some evidence that the character fullfills all critera. It's not a scrappy if they cheer at the person, and thus no a Creator's Pet. As for those examples in particular, them being unpopular is news to me.
Check out my fanfiction!
Are there any polls to where River is shown to be a hated character? In most of the polls I've come across, voting for her doesn't seem to even be an option. River's an example of a Base Breaker, but it's hard to tell how much of the fandom hates her. Is it a majority? A Vocal Minority? If it's the former then shouldn't she be in a a different trope if she doesn't meet all four guideline to be a Creator's Pet?