The Place for Purging Porn and Pedo-Pandering (AKA P5 flag evaluations)

Another thing re: Endless World - the text makes it clear that Ryuu was very young at the time of his cousin raping him, even if the imagery is ambiguous on that point. That said, I'm still not sure if that alone warrants a cut - I think it takes it in that direction, and I think the rapist's point of view scenes are disgusting, but on reading one more time, I'm seriously convinced that the underage sex wasn't meant for titillation. It's disturbing, sickening, disgusting, nasty, horrible, and yes, Too Much Information visually, but I'm going to hold back on calling this pro-pedophilia, especially because the character is portrayed as a victim in all mentions of it but the rapist's flashback scenes and even the rapist has a What Have I Done moment after those flashback scenes that partially leads to his suicide.

As in, does it depict an underage victim being raped in detail? Yes, and being a visual medium, that's likely a strike in the cut section (as I'll mention below). Is the rape depicted as sexy or good or harmless? Not in any way outside of the rapist's fantasies if you read the text at all.

So here's my final, revised summary on what I think would be some outcomes for Endless World.

CUT:

• Pro: Very graphic scenes of rape depicting a minor.
• Pro: Very graphic scenes of consensual sex involving adults, and they make up a sizable portion of the work (around once a chapter once we get out of Chapter 0).
• Con: Those graphic scenes of rape with the minor are, in context, Rape as Drama and Rape as Backstory, and therefore likely not pedo-pandering any more than other works that have depicted (in varying degrees of graphicness) rape for drama/dramatic backstory/to make a character committing it a Complete Monster/whatever other reason than solely pandering to people who get off on rape or abuse.
• Con: The consensual sex scenes are almost all part of the plot and development of the characters. The sex is, for the most part, used to tell a story, e.g. this is closer to Shortbus than Anal Orgy 9.

Keep with ZC Es on page fixed, addition of the Sexual Harassment and Rape Tropes + in-context warning about the graphic and complicated nature of the story:

• Pro: We've kept other works (though perhaps not as graphic ones) depicting rape of minors used as Rape as Drama and in context as anything from horrible crime with severe consequences to "not recognized and prosecuted as criminal, but emotional damage definitely recognized": Lolita, It, Berserk, Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice And Fire, Okane Ga Nai, among others.
• Pro: With proper description and the addition of the tropes needed and the ZC Es filled out (which I'm willing to do) no one goes into this expecting something like Fake's final volume that features only consensual adults having normal R rated movie sex OR expecting to find porn when instead you're looking at Euroshlock meets Soap Opera in a manga.
• Con: Some images from this work entirely ripped out of context from the rapist's dream chapter -chapter 4- are fairly damning.
• Con: There is quite a lot of sex everywhere of both the nonconsensual and consensual kinds - and the story is partially told via the sex and while the sex is taking place.

So I'm still ambivalent. That said, re-evaluation outside of my immediate, visceral disgust to the rapist's point of view pages has made me tentatively think that there could be a non-cut solution, but I can also totally understand a cut based solely on the imagery from that chapter and that so much of the story is about sex or told while having sex, as well.

Edit with off topic yet pertinent note: I will say one thing that makes a lot of (especially more explicit) yaoi/bara/Slash Fic/gay fiction in general (from my own perspective as a writer in the genres) difficult to classify as "porn or not" is that many writers do use explicit sex for many reasons other than or as well as getting the reader off. Plot advancement, character building/revealing stuff about the character and/or his emotions and/or his life and/or the relationship, sometimes even sickening or disturbing the readers by contrasting an unhealthy/selfish/nonconsensual relationship with a later healthy one... among other reasons. The problem with this "integration" with sex being just another way to develop characters is it obviously makes a lot of the genres NSFW, not safe for minors, triggering for some, AND hard as hell (no pun intended) to make any sort of "porn or not, intended for arousal or not" specific call on once an obvious non-Excuse Plot exists.

edited 22nd Sep '14 2:56:50 AM by RevolutionStone

Okay, update time:

1) We still need a third vote for Travels of the Trifecta! and The Manga Guide To Psychosomatic Illnesses.

2) We still need votes, period on Endless World, Ryona and the new flag, Mythology 101 Cycle

• Going by what Revolution Stone's assessment of it, I'm leaning towards giving Endless World a devilhead, but I'll wait until I read through it myself to make a final decision.
• I'm also leaning towards giving Ryona a cut, as well. On the one hand, the page that we have for it is about as clinical as you can get. On the other hand, the type of work being described is basically the fetishization and sexualization of violence committed on women (the women here are fictional, but still). With that in mind, I can't help but feel a bit uncomfortable with keeping a page for this here, especially after watching some actual "Ryona videos" out of curiosity.
• The trope page for Mythology 101 Cycle does look rather suspect, but since this is an unpublished work, I can't really give any judgment on the work itself for obvious reasons.

edited 25th Sep '14 2:39:41 PM by Komodin

I don't think there's anything that can be done on unpublished works as they are, y'know, unpublished. I've said before that I would be OK leaving Ryona as a locked definition page, but if it needs to go, that's fine.

I forgot to add when I flagged Myth 101, every work I know of by the same creator that actually was published is unambiguously porn.

If nothing else I would recommend it be cleaned up.

Oh, Pinata might warrant a snipping as well; the top lists his work, all pornography, and the bottom lists tropes that apply to his work. So in a round-about-way the page is a page for pornographic works. Those ones are published and can be checked.

edited 25th Sep '14 3:29:20 PM by rexpensive

Yeah. I'm still fairly ambivalent on Endless World, to be honest - I'd say keep it without qualification aside from making sure the trope page was correct if it was literature or even Fan Fic, since it could actually work as such told in a non-visual format if that makes sense.

It's just the very graphic drawn sex that pushes it over into "probably needs a cut" for me - pretty much, ironically, the same as I'd say if someone created a manga off Lolita. Original book wouldn't need a cut because it's obviously Unreliable Narrator and not in support of child abuse (and in fact pretty much deconstructs the ideas at its time that Old Man Marrying a Child and the like "didn't have to be awful" by showing how destructive it is and how predatory the thought processes behind it on behalf of the adult are) and, in some ways, is only as "pedo-pandering" as the reader would bring to it. A manga of it would likely be a different matter entirely, because it forces the images that could otherwise just be glossed over into something that is 100% on display, and even if the portrayal of them is entirely negative... that's just a bit sketchy.

edited 25th Sep '14 7:16:01 PM by RevolutionStone

^ A manga could gloss over the actual imagery if it chose to, I think. If kiddy-diddling is shown graphically than I think I would cut it regardless.

I mostly agree with your point (hence what I wrote and how conflicted I am on that work), that said, there are some visual media that portray abuse/rape for the express reason of showing how awful it is (I don't think anyone but a true Nightmare Fetishist or pedophile or someone who gets off on rape to begin with could find the scenes in, say, Berserk arousing or enjoyable or pornographic) or for making people hate/be truly sickened by the rapist/pedo. I wouldn't say it's something that is impossible to show without endorsement/without intentionally pandering to people who want to see that crap, but it's something the writer/artist has to handle with as much if not more extreme care as making sure an anti-tobacco message doesn't become a Stealth Cigarette Commercial or an anti-war movie doesn't become an awesome action flick. And here, I think the visual imagery is what, unfortunately, makes it tread too close to that despite the context being angst.

Which really kind of sucks, in its own way, because the one other thing I've noticed about this work is that it is a fairly intelligent depiction of a predator - the rapist isn't an Obviously Evil cartoon villain that everyone can spot a mile away because of his big white van offering free candy parked in front of the house where he's a Basement-Dweller and creeping around parks looking for TEH CHILDRUN, but he's closer to most Real Life predators in that they can be cool, look normal, they can be someone who has no problems getting laid consensually, they can be that person you see as your best friend, while at the same time they're raping someone related to them/that they know and convincing them that it's okay, don't tell anybody... and it's also a fairly intelligent portrayal of such a victim, someone who develops severe psychological issues such as Stockholm Syndrome and the ability to dismiss being fucking raped.

It's just... yeah, they could have left half of those scenes off panel, or as a written work, it would have been much better :(

All right, new flag time: Erotic Film

Reason: "What is this? An index? Useful Notes? Should it even exist? Lots of (intentional) red links on its "works list"..."

Yeah, I'm gonna have to ask: why do we even have this? A vast majority of the works that'd fit this sort of film type would violate the Content Policy.

edited 1st Oct '14 12:22:59 PM by Komodin

^ I am not sure about that; generally for a film to be considered erotica it has to have more plot than plain porn, so a lot of erotica should probably be allowed by policy.

With that said: I do not think Debbie Does Dallas is an "Erotic Film," haha

I would cut everything from the list that the P5 determined was pure porn on the grounds that it does not counts a erotic film and leave the rest, personally.

ETA: Holy friggin crap why is Two Girls One Cup on there what the hell

edited 1st Oct '14 12:33:06 PM by rexpensive

Debbie Does Dallas is also a work that got its page cut early on - I am sure there was a 5P vote on it, but I am currently too busy with alphabet soup proteins to check.

So my recommendation would be to remove the redlinks that point to pornographic works and put a comment in not to add such redlinks.

Inclusively, pornography would count as a subclass of erotic film, but yeah, I see no need to retain links or even a listing of anything that was cut by the P5 on that index.

+1 to remove anything that was pruned by the P5.

"Inclusively, pornography would count as a subclass of erotic film."

True. I think the term could be defined either way. It is helpful to us to define it as sexy film that is not porn so that is how we should define it.

Debbie Does Dallas did have a vote very early in the thread; if I remember correctly from my read-through, it was one of the first five or so works reviewed. It got devilheaded out.

edited 1st Oct '14 6:42:35 PM by Candi

I'd say keep the index but lock it and limit it to works that actually qualify as art - not Debbie Does Dallas or Two Girls One Cup - but stuff like The Brown Bunny or Shortbus or Last Tango in Paris that was, technically, at least in some sense, created to be primarily artistic even if it's also "erotic" in some sense. As in, idea for inclusion there would be "what was this originally pitched as," and if it was originally pitched as solely porn or a Shock Site, it doesn't belong.

edited 1st Oct '14 10:53:42 PM by RevolutionStone

No arguments here.

Sounds good.

I would suggest to put this proposition into a CVR resolution.

Though I'm obviously not a P5 member I'll do the cleanup on the page, if that's okay.

Bumping, seeing as some articles (Including a new article that has been flagged immediately, Vore) still need votes.

Since January 1, 2012 this article has brought 29 people to the wiki from non-search engine links.
How did it manage that whilst being an empty page?

Looks like just a pointless fetish definition article. (Also just plain badly written and the guy does not even know how deep the rabbit hole goes.)

edited 5th Oct '14 1:57:14 PM by Adannor

I'd be perfectly fine with this, and given it an Angelhead with that in mind.

As for the others, I've given Ryona, Vore (ick!) and Mythology 101 Cycle devilheads, and I'm leaning towards cutting Endless World as well.

That's a good question. How did it manage to get that many inbound links in just 2-3 hours?

edited 5th Oct '14 2:12:10 PM by Komodin

Who cares? Looks like blackcat already tossed it on the cutlist, so I suppose our work on it is done/