Removing complaining, bashing and other negativity from the wiki

I was saying cut the whole Drake and Josh entry and all bullets under it.

Yeah, those are obvious misuse. I also can't think of anything remotely villainous about the wife in everybody loves raymond in the few episodes I saw.

If you see examples that bad, I think you can just cut them.

edited 10th Jul '16 1:09:16 AM by war877

And it looks like more questionable examples have been added to WMG.Ghostbusters 2016.

At this point I think all pages regarding that movie need to be locked.

I agree. This is just childish at this point.

So there's a troper who has, as of late, been making some negative in tone edits to the YMMV pages of Shin Megami Tensei games, particularly IV and IV Apocalypse, that might be questionable. Judging by some of the content of the edits I think he's been hanging out on some very specific websites where the negative opinions expressed are very common, but they don't in general reflect the overall opinions of the greater fandom. Some of the edits have typos as well. Admittedly I'm not unbiased myself considered I greatly enjoyed SMT IV and think the aforementioned websites' criticisms are reaching, which is why I'm bringing it here. Are these edits worth a look, or are my own biases causing me to have unfounded concerns?

edited 14th Jul '16 4:07:47 PM by HamburgerTime

Tropers.Mach Rider 1985 seems to have a hate-on for The Open Door. Yes, hyper-liberal The Unfettered characters aren't for everyone, but he seems to take it particularly bad. There are so many negativity-accentuating entries that it's tempting to just nuke the page and rebuild from scratch rather than try to correct one by one.

edited 11th Aug '16 6:46:59 AM by GentlemensDame883

Scsigs has added this to YMMV.Five Seconds Of Summer:

* Suspiciously Similar Song: Examples include "Social Casualty” having the exact same instrumental as Fall Out Boy's "Sugar, We're Goin' Down", "18" randomly stealing part of the instrumental to Foo Fighters' "Everlong" at 1:54, & "Jet Black Heart" sounding like a slowed down version of Panic! at the Disco's "Girls/Girls/Boys", or something by My Chemical Romance. It's a wonder they haven't been sued. Doesn't help when there's the fact that a majority of their fanbase simply refuses to even remotely acknowledge the similarities, defending the songs with the "argument" that "there's only enough chords in the world", rather than demanding better from their favorite band. It wouldn't be that bad if they credited the writers of those songs in the writers' credit part of those songs, but they don't 99% of the time. The only song they credited the original song writers with is Duran Duran for their song "Hey Everybody!", which means on some level, they're aware of what they're doing when writing songs. Coupled with other stuff they've done, they've effectively created a section of the Pop Punk fanbase that absolutely LOATHES them because they don't show an honest intent at any originality most of the time, and when they do, it's not that good, or at least not as good as the bands that inspire them. They're fans don't help that either, but that's the Vocal Minority of a fanbase for you.

• There's also the fact that their sound is obviously taken very much from All Time Low. Yeah, Alex Gaskarth has written with them, but that's no excuse.
• This playlist is dedicated to pointing all of them out.

Added this as an Example Indentation second level bullet-point on the same page:

As well as adding this sentence to the paragraph under Fan Myopia on the same page:

This seems like the place to propose this: around the site terms such as "retard" or "retarded" are used. Like people of ethnic or sexual minorities such wording is highly offensive and hurtful, however as a few web links demonstrate...

• This news article explains how the term is so hurtful and that there is a push to have it removed.
• The site campaigning to have it removed explains how it excludes those who do have a disability, makes them feel like less of a person.
• The Huffington Post goes into detail on how hurtful some comments are.
• This site expresses frustration that calling people "retard" and "retarded" is the norm.
• The Liberal Times has a [1] as well as a nice comparison by saying that, no, we don't have N Word Privilages.
• One person has explained why he stopped using the word and why others should as well here, and discusses the myths about name calling and bullying.
• lbrb, a autism news web site, discusses how the Special Olympics came with a campaign to stop the slur.

Now maybe I have it wrong, maybe all these people are wrong. Maybe such comments are not hate speech, or should not be considered hate speech. But if we are right in pointing this out then could I propose that we clean up such terms from the site?

Can someone explain to me how Ink-Stain Adaptation isn't just "Adaptation Displacement with complaining"?

when we said in the other thread we needed to know if that was a real problem, we meant on this site. Is retard/retarded used on TV Tropes to denote badness (i.e. "that episode was retarded") or stupidity ("Bob was a retard in this episode") or even as a slur against people on the autism spectrum ("Bob has Asperger's, he's a retard") ? That's what you need to demonstrate before we can do anything.

Ah. Well context is important which is why I have left the Tropic Thunder examples alone. However some descriptions of a person, referring to them as retarded rather than handicapped on Who Murdered the Asshole for example, or a joke at Jin's expense in Dead Island (my own joke by the way), then yes I think they would be appropriate to change.

Is it such a problem that it does require a cleanup? My answer to that is if we are not allowed to refer to a Complete Monster anywhere except on that specific page then coming across an article that has such slurs is infinitely more hurtful. Is it so prevalent that it requires a focused push? Maybe not, but then how often is something like a car stalled on a railway crossing occur? People cannot stress enough why this is so important, with good reason, and I think it would be good to take the same attitude with such slurs.

Complete Monster is a trope, so the rampant misuse which required it to be restricted is not the same or even a similar situation. If anything, it's the opposite—the misuse typically comes from people recklessly applying the label Complete Monster to their favorite villains as a perverse badge of honor.

I don't have any fundamental problems with removing gratuitous uses of the word, just as I'd accept the removal of racial, gender, or ethnic slurs that are used outside of an appropriate context. We don't permit the removal of such language in bulk without regard to context, though.

edited 26th Aug '16 12:00:35 PM by Fighteer

A quick look through and...wow. It's used everywhere. Trope names, works, used to refer to the disabled with gay abandon (and I apologize if that is offensive.) To cite your case where it might be appropriate to remove it, I think we can do without the full scene from Tropic Thunder as an example. If a better description could be used then we could probably do that too. Quotes though, that makes it hard. This is what someone had said and when it comes to Ann Coulture, was it? When she made such comments then in this case I think they should actually remain if only to demonstrate this is how she thinks. I did a little bit of a cleanup myself that may show what I would like to achieve.

Not sure if I explained properly. Complete Monster is seemingly a Berserk Button to some. Even if it was used on the likes of Joffery, Arl Howe, Angelus, The Joker, Nina Myers, ect, examples that cannot be argued and discussion that they are not wouldn't even be entertained, any example on any page that mentions them as this to show their heinousness is removed. I suggested that referring to a Complete Monster as such is seemingly offensive, if it is offensive to some to mention this trope then how do disability slurs fly? They shouldn't. Should they?

Sounds like remove examples that refer to the disabled unless said word is a quote directly from the work, leave examples that are just using the word as a way to denote badness.

Why would we leave examples that use the word to denote badness? Do we allow the use of "gay" as a term to mean bad?

I believe the answer is that it has only been in the past few years that the issue had really been taken on board. Think back say five years ago, the slur would be used to sound edgy or cool, media thought up new and fun ways to say it and you could play a game of bingo for how many times it came up online. Now...you could still play a game counting how much it's used online but that's about the only place you would hear it. Much the same as hate speech on race and homosexual fear was played up once upon a time discrimination on disability is a new thing, and we are now playing catch up with how it affects people and being sensitive to not using such terms.

Terms related to mental or physical handicaps are still used as slurs. The reason you're not seeing "retarded" used anymore is that as the preferred euphemisms for those conditions have changed, the slurs have changed to match.

Yep. The same as we don't see jokes about African Americans much unless you play online is due to being sensitive to people. The old myths of eating chicken and watermelon or that Original Australians Can't Hold His Liquor would not fly today.

Do people in the real word ever even use 'retarded' as a slur anymore? I know it has been used as a slur in the past but I don't think I've ever once heard it being used as a slur in the real world. Just as a word to indicate badness.

Also, the wiki doesn't allow the bulk removal of words.

Yes they do, people still use discrimination and hate speech in real life, it's everywhere online but most all of the people who say this are trolls. You probably seen it pretty much eliminated in media with the last instance I can recall being Justin Beiber's roast where the woman who said it was utterly condemned. And...oh.

Look, look, look, look, look.

Can't count how much it's used even after a cleanup. Work names, trope names, quotes which admittedly we can't really mess with, we can change this one I think.

Freddy Got Fingered

"The film shows the apparently mentally-retarded cartoonist Gord Brody (Green) heading to Los Angeles to obtain a contract for a television series."

So yeah you bet it's still used pretty consistently despite most getting the message.

Yeaaaah that's not okay. Should remove that.

Uh, looking at the trope page for Face–Heel Turn that explicitly forbids IRL examples, the t.A.T.u. page is in need of some editing, correct? The page itself seems to be quite biased against Yulia.

I dislike editing pages because I'm always afraid I'll do something wrong. Also I think this is the right thread for this?

edited 7th Sep '16 3:33:54 AM by Nikkolas

The complaining on The Nutshack page is getting really out of hand. The page actually starts with the phrase "Literally the worst thing ever.".