What is this, exactly?: Old School Dogfighting get usage counts
Deadlock Clock: 17th Dec 2012 11:59:00 PM

Total posts: [204]
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151 nrjxll16th Dec 2012 03:14:51 PM , Relationship Status: Not war
Space Is Air is about the setting as a whole, whereas Space Dogfight is a specific set piece.
152 NativeJovian16th Dec 2012 03:21:42 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
Right, I'm not saying that Space Is Air and Space Dogfight are the same thing. I'm saying that Space Dogfight = Space Is Air + Old-School Dogfighting, which I don't believe is tropeworthy.
153 Xtifr16th Dec 2012 03:31:15 PM , Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
[up]I agree, and I think that's compatible with the crowner results (which aren't exclusive of each other) as well.
"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
154 NativeJovian16th Dec 2012 03:54:29 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
So I went to remake Sandbox.Old School Dogfighting and Sandbox.Space Is Air and discovered that the previous writeups were still in the page history, so I tweaked 'em a bit and restored them. I'll post the Sandbox.Space Is Air link on the YKTTW, but what does everyone here think of both pages?

Edit — looking things over, Space Is Air actually seems to be a supertrope that encompasses (the current definition of) Old-School Dogfighting, Batman Can Breathe in Space, and Space Clouds, plus aspects of Space Is Noisy, Space Friction, Gravity Sucks, and Stealth in Space.

edited 16th Dec '12 4:10:12 PM by NativeJovian

155 nrjxll16th Dec 2012 04:52:41 PM , Relationship Status: Not war
That's actually my point: Space Is Air carries a lot of associated concepts that Space Dogfight does not require, so saying that Space Dogfight is merely "Space Is Air plus Old-School Dogfighting" isn't really accurate. It's a subtrope, not a pure product of overlap.
156 NativeJovian16th Dec 2012 04:59:56 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
My point with regard to Space Dogfight is that I don't think it's distinct enough from Old-School Dogfighting, not that it's not distinct enough from Space Is Air.
I'm thinking Space Is Air to be like Water Is Air and Sand Is Water. A lot more than fighters fighting is covered.
158 NativeJovian18th Dec 2012 08:58:46 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
No argument here.
159 nrjxll18th Dec 2012 11:15:09 PM , Relationship Status: Not war
My point with regard to Space Dogfight is that I don't think it's distinct enough from Old-School Dogfighting, not that it's not distinct enough from Space Is Air.

I'm not sure that's an argument against it, since they're basically coming from two different places. Space Dogfight is essentially a part of the genre now, and appears even in works with relatively realistic spaceflight physics. Old-School Dogfighting, on the other hand, seems to be more about the "older forms of aerial combat were cooler" attitude.
160 NativeJovian19th Dec 2012 10:29:12 AM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
My point is that Space Dogfight = Old-School Dogfighting + Space Is Air. Space Dogfight is a subtrope of Old-School Dogfighting that happens when Space Is Air. That's pretty classic The Same but More Specific ("Old-School Dogfighting, but in space"), which is generally not tropeworthy. I don't see any reason why it should be in this case.

What I'm saying is that Space Dogfight should be lumped with Old-School Dogfighting and Space Is Air should be it's own thing.
161 nrjxll19th Dec 2012 11:31:47 AM , Relationship Status: Not war
Space Dogfight is a subtrope of Old-School Dogfighting that happens when Space Is Air.

But I don't believe that's the case. Space Dogfight has essentially become an accepted part of the space opera genre - it can occur without Space Is Air, and when it does it's for reasons slightly different from the purely Rule of Cool-driven Old-School Dogfighting.
162 NativeJovian19th Dec 2012 07:00:05 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
Er, no, you can't have a Space Dogfight without Space Is Air, because there's no reason to be Chasing Your Tail (even if you have a Fixed Forward-Facing Weapon) when you can just spin in place without affecting your direction of travel. That's my point, really; any example of Space Dogfight would also be an example of both Old-School Dogfighting and Space Is Air, because an old school dogfight in space is one of the indications that space is air.
163 MarqFJA19th Dec 2012 07:05:37 PM from Saudi Arabia , Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
... What is Space Of Air's definition, again? Because I fear you two are using totally different definitions.
Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
@2nd post (of the 1st page) Bumped it's YKTTW, not not sure if it's really launched. If so, Needs Wiki Magic Love. (and maybe a Special Efforts thread) Created one: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=jd6y8b0gb6uxwxiix7tgafgs

edited 19th Dec '12 8:42:49 PM by spacemarine50

165 MarqFJA19th Dec 2012 08:52:39 PM from Saudi Arabia , Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
That's a job for TRS, not Special Efforts. And the trope was cut for, IIRC, premature launch or something like that.
Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
166 NativeJovian20th Dec 2012 06:33:18 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
Space Is Air is a subtrope of Space Does Not Work That Way and a sister trope to Water Is Air and Sand Is Water. There's a prospective writeup at Sandbox.Space Is Air, but the general version is "when spacecraft act like aircraft" (eg, have wings, bank into turns, have their engines on all the time).
167 MarqFJA20th Dec 2012 07:05:42 PM from Saudi Arabia , Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
Okay, but from reading Sandbox.Space Dogfight, it seems like it does not always involve Space Is Air.
Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
168 NativeJovian20th Dec 2012 07:09:10 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
That line is meant to refer to works where space isn't air except during space dogfights (eg, Cowboy Bebop, which is fairly good about following Newtonian physics, right up until the shooting starts, when it immediately reverts to Space Is Air).
169 nrjxll20th Dec 2012 07:37:21 PM , Relationship Status: Not war
[up]That's what I meant when I said Space Dogfight doesn't require Space Is Air.
170 NativeJovian20th Dec 2012 08:17:46 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
Er, but it does? Space Is Air is always in effect during a Space Dogfight. It might not be in effect in the same work outside of the space dogfights, but if there's a space dogfight going on, then space is being air for the moment.
171 MarqFJA21st Dec 2012 06:20:41 AM from Saudi Arabia , Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
Space Is Air, as I understanding, is a setting-wide trope, in that it has to apply even outside of spacefighter combat.
Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
172 nrjxll21st Dec 2012 01:58:31 PM , Relationship Status: Not war
[up]Yes.

However, I think we've moved past that point - the current question is the distinction between Old-School Dogfighting and Space Dogfight.
173 StarSword9th Feb 2013 10:44:45 AM from somewhere in deep space , Relationship Status: In denial
SF-81A Black Knight
The former is old-style "planes zipping around shooting each other with guns", the other is starships doing it by way of Space Does Not Work That Way. That's my feeling, anyway.

As an aside, I've seen a redlink titled Dogfighting Furballs popping up on the wiki, and have removed it where I've seen it. Think we could get any mileage out of making use of the name?

edited 9th Feb '13 10:46:14 AM by StarSword

174 SeptimusHeap9th Feb 2013 11:34:27 AM from Zurich, Switzerland , Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Old-School Dogfighting as-is is purely about space battles. I don't think these tropes have much separate meaning and would support a merge.
175 NativeJovian9th Feb 2013 12:01:51 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
Oh hey, this thread.

Where we are at the moment is that we have Sandbox.Old School Dogfighting, Sandbox.Space Dogfight, and Sandbox.Space Is Air that all have descriptions but no examples.

I'd suggest axing Space Dogfight, since it's not substantially different from Old School Dogfighting (swap your Cool Plane for a Space Fighter and that's about it). I'd also suggest renaming Old School Dogfighting to Old School Dogfight, since that's easier to use in a sentence (and you can always just curly-brace the "ing" back in if you want). After that we'd need to sort examples and we'd finally be done with this thread.

Page Action: Old School Dogfighting
16th Mar '12 1:59:06 PM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
Note that none of these options are mutually exclusive.

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