What is this, exactly?: Old School Dogfighting

Space Is Air is about the setting as a whole, whereas Space Dogfight is a specific set piece.

Right, I'm not saying that Space Is Air and Space Dogfight are the same thing. I'm saying that Space Dogfight = Space Is Air + Old-School Dogfighting, which I don't believe is tropeworthy.

I agree, and I think that's compatible with the crowner results (which aren't exclusive of each other) as well.

So I went to remake Sandbox.Old School Dogfighting and Sandbox.Space Is Air and discovered that the previous writeups were still in the page history, so I tweaked 'em a bit and restored them. I'll post the Sandbox.Space Is Air link on the YKTTW, but what does everyone here think of both pages?

Edit — looking things over, Space Is Air actually seems to be a supertrope that encompasses (the current definition of) Old-School Dogfighting, Batman Can Breathe in Space, and Space Clouds, plus aspects of Space Is Noisy, Space Friction, Gravity Sucks, and Stealth in Space.

edited 16th Dec '12 4:10:12 PM by NativeJovian

That's actually my point: Space Is Air carries a lot of associated concepts that Space Dogfight does not require, so saying that Space Dogfight is merely "Space Is Air plus Old-School Dogfighting" isn't really accurate. It's a subtrope, not a pure product of overlap.

My point with regard to Space Dogfight is that I don't think it's distinct enough from Old-School Dogfighting, not that it's not distinct enough from Space Is Air.

I'm thinking Space Is Air to be like Water Is Air and Sand Is Water. A lot more than fighters fighting is covered.

No argument here.

I'm not sure that's an argument against it, since they're basically coming from two different places. Space Dogfight is essentially a part of the genre now, and appears even in works with relatively realistic spaceflight physics. Old-School Dogfighting, on the other hand, seems to be more about the "older forms of aerial combat were cooler" attitude.

My point is that Space Dogfight = Old-School Dogfighting + Space Is Air. Space Dogfight is a subtrope of Old-School Dogfighting that happens when Space Is Air. That's pretty classic The Same But More Specific ("Old-School Dogfighting, but in space"), which is generally not tropeworthy. I don't see any reason why it should be in this case.

What I'm saying is that Space Dogfight should be lumped with Old-School Dogfighting and Space Is Air should be it's own thing.

But I don't believe that's the case. Space Dogfight has essentially become an accepted part of the space opera genre - it can occur without Space Is Air, and when it does it's for reasons slightly different from the purely Rule of Cool-driven Old-School Dogfighting.

Er, no, you can't have a Space Dogfight without Space Is Air, because there's no reason to be Chasing Your Tail (even if you have a Fixed Forward-Facing Weapon) when you can just spin in place without affecting your direction of travel. That's my point, really; any example of Space Dogfight would also be an example of both Old-School Dogfighting and Space Is Air, because an old school dogfight in space is one of the indications that space is air.

... What is Space Of Air's definition, again? Because I fear you two are using totally different definitions.

@2nd post (of the 1st page) Bumped it's YKTTW, not not sure if it's really launched. If so, Needs Wiki Magic Love. (and maybe a Special Efforts thread) Created one: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=jd6y8b0gb6uxwxiix7tgafgs

edited 19th Dec '12 8:42:49 PM by spacemarine50

That's a job for TRS, not Special Efforts. And the trope was cut for, IIRC, premature launch or something like that.

Space Is Air is a subtrope of Space Does Not Work That Way and a sister trope to Water Is Air and Sand Is Water. There's a prospective writeup at Sandbox.Space Is Air, but the general version is "when spacecraft act like aircraft" (eg, have wings, bank into turns, have their engines on all the time).

Okay, but from reading Sandbox.Space Dogfight, it seems like it does not always involve Space Is Air.

That line is meant to refer to works where space isn't air except during space dogfights (eg, Cowboy Bebop, which is fairly good about following Newtonian physics, right up until the shooting starts, when it immediately reverts to Space Is Air).

That's what I meant when I said Space Dogfight doesn't require Space Is Air.

Er, but it does? Space Is Air is always in effect during a Space Dogfight. It might not be in effect in the same work outside of the space dogfights, but if there's a space dogfight going on, then space is being air for the moment.

Space Is Air, as I understanding, is a setting-wide trope, in that it has to apply even outside of spacefighter combat.

Yes.

However, I think we've moved past that point - the current question is the distinction between Old-School Dogfighting and Space Dogfight.

The former is old-style "planes zipping around shooting each other with guns", the other is starships doing it by way of Space Does Not Work That Way. That's my feeling, anyway.

As an aside, I've seen a redlink titled Dogfighting Furballs popping up on the wiki, and have removed it where I've seen it. Think we could get any mileage out of making use of the name?

edited 9th Feb '13 10:46:14 AM by StarSword

Old-School Dogfighting as-is is purely about space battles. I don't think these tropes have much separate meaning and would support a merge.

Oh hey, this thread.

Where we are at the moment is that we have Sandbox.Old School Dogfighting, Sandbox.Space Dogfight, and Sandbox.Space Is Air that all have descriptions but no examples.

I'd suggest axing Space Dogfight, since it's not substantially different from Old School Dogfighting (swap your Cool Plane for a Space Fighter and that's about it). I'd also suggest renaming Old School Dogfighting to Old School Dogfight, since that's easier to use in a sentence (and you can always just curly-brace the "ing" back in if you want). After that we'd need to sort examples and we'd finally be done with this thread.