Unclear description: Magical Girl

In the Special Efforts thread for cleaning up Stock Japanese Characters several problems with the description were found:

1. Is this trope about a genre or a character type? The description is not really clear on this.

2. The only part really discribing what this trope is about is: Magical Girls are empowered by various means with fantastic powers that both assist and complicate their lives, but manage to persevere despite this.

Then we learn a bit about demographics and history, nice but not really necessary.

And the last sentence is: A girl who can use magic is not necessarily a Magical Girl in the sense of the trope or genre...

So what is a Magical Girl? She has some fantastic powers but where are the difference to just girls using magic? The description should include the limits of the trope, especially when the existence of this limits is pointed out.

3. Cute Witch is called a subtrope of Magical Girl, but while there is some overlap not every Cute Witch is a Magical Girl (e.g. Sabrina The Teenage Witch).

edited 9th Sep '11 5:05:38 AM by Osmium

Well, this thread is going to be fun, I can tell.

I'll just say that it's very easy to mix this up with its Magical Girl Warrior subtrope, especially for Americans who are only familiar with the genre (or character type or whatever) through Sailor Moon.

Split into Magical Girl (for the stock character) and Magical Girl Genre?

edited 9th Sep '11 6:58:07 AM by Antheia

That split between genre and character as well as cleaning up the difference between related tropes (Cute Witch) and true subtropes (Magic Idol Singer, and Magical Girl Warrior).

Cute Witch can be magical girls, but they don't have to be.

Magical Girl Warrior and Magic Idol Singer are always a subtrope of Magical Girl.

edited 9th Sep '11 7:12:33 AM by shimaspawn

It's about the Magical Girl Genre, which is defined by the Magical Girl character.

Makes perfect sense to me to combine the two. The existence of a Magical Girl character is pretty much what defines the genre. If a Magical Girl shows up in a different genre it's done to parody or deconstruct the Magical Girl genre.

Additionally, the Magical Girl genre, other then the requirement of a Magical Girl character, is extremely broad. It is not easy to describe with a series of attributes. It ranges from things like Sally The Witch and Kikis Delivery Service to things like Sailor Moon, to the Magic Idol Singer variety. In western works this would mean a genre that includes Rainbow Brite, She Ra, and Sabrina The Teenage Witch. Even Hannah Montana would count if you added some magical transformations to the "two worlds" scenario.

I actually think describing the history of the genre helps quite a bit, as knowing that the original source of the genre is Bewitched helps me realize the broad nature of the genre rather then just Sailor Moon which is the main Western exposure to it.

I do think there are a few problems.

The examples seem to include a lot of shows that ought to be moved to their specific sub-Genres. Magical Girl Warrior, Cute Witch, etc.

I think we need to put a note on there that examples from the subgenres need to be put on the subgenre pages not the Magical Girl page. Only Magical Girl series that do not fit into these subgenres (which ought to be very few) should appear on the main page.

The other problem is that the history of the genre is insufficient. I think the best way to help the description would be to look at the Magical Girl Tropes page and select the tropes that are the most distinctive to Magical Girls and include them on the main Magical Girl page as indicators that you are in a Magical Girl show.

For example:

Frills of Justice - if this trope shows up there is a very large chance you are in a Magical Girl show.

Transformation Sequence - if this is how the frills of justice show up then it's pretty much certain you are in a Magical Girl show.

Magic Wand - Evidence this might be a Cute Witch show.

However we probably don't need to include Action Girl on the page. While it is common to Magical Girl shows, it's not high indicator that a show is a Magical Girl show.

edited 9th Sep '11 7:24:13 AM by Sackett

Magical Girl Warrior and Cute Witch are not Genres they are character types.

Magical Girlfriend also seems to have the problem of genre vs character.

Dark Magical Girl seems to have a shit ton of random western examples that are just not the trope at all. I mean like a vast majority of the western examples, they would be Dark Action Girl or Black Magician Girl or a Woobie trope or just a Bad Girl who uses magic.

Yes any actual Magical Girl character not in the genre is usually a specific reference to said Genre.

edited 9th Sep '11 7:30:59 AM by Raso

Magical Girl Warrior, and Cute Witch are not genres. They are character types. Cute Witch especially shows up all over the place often as a supporting character. We are trying to seperate genres from character types. Not badly shoehorn genres into other character types.

I don't have a problem with the concept of a genre that is defined by a character type, to the point that the words can be used to mean both the character type and the genre. I think making a split here might be a unnecessary duplication. However, I'll differ to the opinion of those that are more familiar with Magical Girl works than I am.

Given that this is a literal translation of Mahou shoujo and is really specific to a Japanese genre, my question would be "How do the Japanese use this term?"

My understanding based on (a possibly older version of) the article itself is that they used to use it to mean Cute Witch. Somewhere around the point of (and largely because of) Sailor Moon the meaning changed to mean Magical Girl Warrior. Magic Idol Singer fits in there somewhere too but I'm less sure how.

I know about Cutey Honey but went for the oversimplified explanation.

edited 9th Sep '11 10:49:23 AM by Elle

There were series before Sailor Moon that followed Magical Girl Warrior pattern Cutie Honey is the Unbuilt Trope (Unbuilt Genre?) with all required elements but aimed at what would become the secondary demographic Seinen (New Cutie Honey was Magical Girlfriend too.) however Sailor Moon was the Genre Codifier (all aspects of the warrior genre were present in other works but not standard) and the way the rest of the world views Magical Girl.

Old style Magical Girl works do still exist however are very rare.

A Magical Girl Warrior can still be a Cute Witch too, IE Yue in Negima.

Magic Idol Singer is an odd duck it's an offshoot really. The normal girl transforms and becomes a Pop Star stems from the Idol Singer craze as a Wish-Fulfillment. I think it's a bit too restricted, Sailor Venus from Sailor Moon became an actor with her powers, so does Kyoko in To Love Ru (they both play themselves really Magical Girl s)

edited 9th Sep '11 11:12:43 AM by Raso

I very much support something like a check list of tropes and things to identify a Magical Girl on the page. I don't necessarily think we need to split the page into the character type and genre, though possibly make "Magical Girl Genre" and "Magical Girl Character", redirects so we can differentiate in situations when we might need to.

edited 9th Sep '11 6:09:36 PM by NoirGrimoir

I'll give this a shot. The modern archetypal Magical Girl:

• Begins the story as an ordinary person, often the Ordinary High-School Student
• Is offered The Call to become a Henshin Hero, often by a Mentor Mascot
• Usually takes on the role as a Secret Identity and has to Wake Up, Go to School, Save the World
• Has a Transformation Sequence, often by means of a Transformation Trinket, a costume with Frills of Justice and flashy magical powers.

Other tropes come and go between shows, but take any of the above away and you don't have recognizable Magical Girl any longer.

What show was that? I'm not up on most current anime. ...ah, wait, wasn't Pretty Sammy one of these?

edited 9th Sep '11 7:36:08 PM by Elle

There is one exception to the first point. If the character is secretly a princess masquerading as an Ordinary High-School Student she still counts. Because Everythings Better With Princesses.

edited 9th Sep '11 7:22:24 PM by shimaspawn

I'd say the last three are correct.

The first one is the most common form but there is also the "royal princess" who protects her kingdom versions.

If the first one was rephrased "Appears to be an ordinary person, often an Ordinary High-School Student"?

No, Sakett is right. Sometimes they're princesses from the start. But it is always ordinary person, princess, or princess pretending to be an ordinary person.

So... where do non-hidden Cute Witch in training Magical Girl series like Akazukin Chacha go to? <<

No idea. Never seen one that was actually a Magical Girl Series.

Usually takes on a secret identity. There are a number of shows that skip that: Mai Otome comes to mind, and I believe the later seasons of Nanoha.

Don't know about Mai-Otome but as for Nanoha, emphasis on the later seasons - she came out to her parents and close friends at the end of the 2nd season, and the third season was a Time Skip where Nanoha had moved to the paralel universe where magic was normal and the tone of the show shifted more to the Seinen with Magitek. Dropping the initial masquerade, at least to those who are close, I think is a modern trend?

edited 9th Sep '11 7:57:37 PM by Elle

Yeah... the Secret Identity might be revealed in later seasons, but in the beginning it's usually still there.

Also, I don't think the Princess Magical Girl is always pretending to be an Ordinary Highschool Student.

I know my sisters watched one where the princess became a Magical Girl to protect the people because that was the hereditary role of the princess (nevermind that some how there was never a Queen, only princesses). If I remember right the princess had to conceal her fighting and magical powers, and pretend to be a good little princess (not in highschool) the rest of the time. Going to balls and boring meetings and such.

It was sort of an escapist character for Tomboys that also wanted to be princesses- but didn't really like the more formal elements.

edited 9th Sep '11 8:07:41 PM by Sackett

I know it's not all Ordinary High-School Student, pretending or otherwise, but I'm pretty sure it's the most common. Reading the Mai Otome entry, the universe of that series isn't "modern day Earth-like setting" but one where magic is openly done in public. Any universe with that condition opens the door to other origin stories, as well as the Secret Identity being more optional.

edited 9th Sep '11 8:16:44 PM by Elle

I'm fine with your whole list being put on there as the usual markers of a Magical Girl.

But it seemed you were looking for a stricter application that if a character lack even one of the items on your list then they were not really Magical Girls.

Secret Identity is not 100% required, many times it's like an open secret and at minimum the bad guys know who they are. (IE Precure)

Princess Magical Girl normally have their situation be Magical Girl Queenliness Test or along those lines.