Rename: The Mario

I find "The Mario" to be a rather vague title, especially considering it only applies to the American Super Mario Bros 2 and the Mario Kart series as far as balanced characters in video games are concerned. "The Mario" could easily refer to a character who is a fat plumber for all we know. "The Balanced One" (a redirect) is way more descriptive. "The All Rounder" would be good as well.

edited 20th Jul '11 9:59:15 AM by PowerRider

While I don't really disagree with you, The Mario has been shown to have a great deal of inbounds and almost no misuse.

This time you have a point. I don't see it being changed, but I agree that the redirect is a more descriptive title. I think its an artifact title from the early days of the wiki though, so its embedded pretty deeply.

It's already got Jack of All Stats and The Balanced One as redirects, which seem clear enough.

edited 20th Jul '11 10:04:59 AM by Discar

See also:
[1]
[2]
[3]

Without a doubt, this needs a rename.

I'd love to see this renamed.

Have to say, I'd love to see this one renamed as well.

Well, as I said, I don't really mind renaming it. I'm just curious as to what basis we're doing it under. It passes the One Mario Limit (obviously) doesn't seem to be misused and has lots of inbounds.

Oh, and if we were going to use one of the redirects for the new name, I like Jack of All Stats a lot better than The Balanced One.

The Balanced One is a pretty fine redirect which covers most if not all of the issues (it should make mention of stats though). Given that and the previous history of this trope and rename attempts, I think it definitively does not need a rename.

I'll need to think on the specific evidence as to why this needs to be renamed, but past rename attempts failing are not a reason not to this time. Need I even say which trope wouldn't have been renamed if that were true?

^ While true enough, you're neglecting the part where a large part of why Nakama was changed was because new evidence was found in that nakama didn't mean what people thought it did. I'm fine with renaming this, but if you want to be able to pass a rename crowner you probably need a stronger argument than those that have been presented.

edited 20th Jul '11 10:33:53 AM by Arha

For starters, Mario isn't always "The Mario" (or more precisely the balanced character) in every game he appeared with other player characters. There's one exception mentioned in the article (Mario Golf) and I'm sure there's probably one more if we dig deeper. If we want to stretch things a bit, there are many instances where Luigi had the same skills as Mario.

The less ambiguous the name, the better if you ask me, especially if doesn't use a popular character's name. "The Mario" could be about that dance move they made in the opening of Super Mario Bros Super Show for anyone who doesn't click on the link. "The Balanced One" on the other hand gives a better idea of what it is about, although I prefer "The All Rounder" instead.

edited 20th Jul '11 10:56:45 AM by PowerRider

Hoo, boy...

This one has been tried, and failed, a few times before. I was planning to bring it up, but only after we're done sorting out the new "clarity" thing and where it fits into the guidelines, which we evidently haven't yet.

To have a chance of getting a rename through this time, the following need to be procured as soon as possible:

1. A wick check of a random (square root of total) wicks, with anything that is not outright correct use pointed out. This includes X Just X, Sink Holes, examples with a significantly flawed explanation for how they are examples (that's borderline Trope Decay) and, of course, incorrect use and examples that are not examples (though past discussions suggest these are few).
2. An analysis of the inbounds. Where are they coming from? How many of them are people actually using this term and not "hey, read this" links? How do they compare to inbounds from similar tropes?
3. Stat comparison with similar tropes (Mighty Glacier, Fragile Speedster...) to find disuse in case it exists.
4. The case for why the title is unclear. Something tangible that shows that when people hear "The Mario", this is not the trope they think of.

Sadly, I have stuff to do that pays the rent, so I can't get to this right now (which I would dearly love to). I'll try to get at least one or two of these done today.

Correct
1) Another Centurys Episode: Looks correct.
2) Arcanum Of Steamworks And Magick Obscura: Correct.
3) Baldurs Gate Dark Alliance: Correct.
4) Characters.Dissidia Final Fantasy Warriors Of Cosmos: Correct. I had to scroll up to the begining of the Warrior of Light's description to find out about his balancedness.
5) Mario Kart: Correct.
6) Mario And Sonic At The Olympic Games: Correct.
7) Early-Installment Weirdness: Correct.

Incorrect
1) Laconic.Dr Mario: Refers to the actual Mario.

Unknown
1) Jets N Guns: X Just X
2) Yoshis Island: Possibly referring to Mario himself, or to Yoshi (who's the only playable person in the game, IIRC). I highly suspect this to be misuse.

edited 20th Jul '11 11:37:05 AM by MangaManiac

Is it bad that I'm kinda hoping that misuse is found so this can be renamed?

edited 20th Jul '11 11:18:34 AM by INUH

Nope. I don't blame you. I don't think it's a good name, either, but there's not much in the way of grounds for renaming it based on what happened last time.

edited 20th Jul '11 11:20:03 AM by Arha

Trope names being in any way whatsoever good is by no means a retro-active requirement, it seems. If it's always been bad it's allowed to stay bad as long as there isn't misuse. I don't like that one bit, but it's tough to argue against it

Okay, looking at stats of The Mario compared to similar tropes:

The Mario - 721 wicks; 2,368 inbounds

Peers (in alphabetical order):

Fragile Speedster - 1,239 wicks; 1,549 inbounds
Game-Breaker - 2,841 wicks; 3,141 inbounds
Glass Cannon - 1,065 wicks; 3,697 inbounds
Lightning Bruiser - 1,346 wicks; 1,260 inbounds
Mighty Glacier - 1,292 wicks; 1,211 inbounds
Squishy Wizard - 1,132 wicks; 2,865 inbounds
Stone Wall - 431 wicks; 529 inbounds

Conclusion 1: Stone Wall needs more love.

Conclusion 2: The Mario is in the high-mid-tier of its peers inbound-wise. It doesn't get as much attention as Game-Breaker or Glass Cannon (hypothesis: These are what a title for this kind of trope should look like), but it's performing better than, say, Mighty Glacier. (Which makes sense, come to think of it. "Glacier"? What does that have to do... Huh.)

Conclusion 3: The Mario is kind of lagging behind, wick-wise. It has less wicks than expected of a thriving name for this kind of trope. The gap is not dramatic, but it is noticeably there.

(EDIT: I accidentally compared to the number of wicks of Fragile Speedster instead of The Mario in conclusion 3)

edited 20th Jul '11 12:03:41 PM by TripleElation

Did a quick check, see post 15.

Could someone check all the Mario game pages in case it's being misused as the character's name? I don't think it is, but hey worth a check.

^^Is it as healthy as it should be, though? It's the second-lowest in the category, and everything else has many more wicks than it does.

The Mario is less likely to be in a non-videogame than the others though.

Damn...I really wish that wasn't a good point.

Most things usually have someone balanced. Either as a starting place or a main character that everyone can identify with.

Wait, shouldn't this be an automatic rename, as it's named after a character?