Not a trope: A Date With Rosie Palms

The trope as currently written gives plenty of narrative significance, it is stated almost directly that the use of the action in fiction denotes sexual/emotional frustration along with embarassment in being Caught with Your Pants Down. The trope hasn't ever been used as simple masterbation references, but is specifically about characters in the act or alluding to doing it (previously or upcoming), hence the name A Date With Rosie Palms. The Buffy episode where Xander used a Last-Second Word Swap to call Dracula "the Dark Master... bater" wouldn't count as the trope.

But I guess it doesn't really matter, you'll probably split the trope regardless of me saying that it's working just fine as it is.

The page as it's written shows masturbation having narrative significance in six different ways (Mistaken for Masturbating, Masturbators Are Loners, Military Masturbation, Porn, Caught with Their Pants Down and Masturbation Is Evil), which indicates that it covers masturbation as a broad subject matter, which is not a trope. It'd be the same as if somebody created a page on all the different ways chairs can have narrative significance. Index, not a trope.

So we are going to have this page name on indexes. Anyone else find that kind of funny?

^^ Yeah, this is starting to become less about the trope and more about trope organization theory. By that logic if you can break down any trope into subtropes that makes the original not a trope. Grouping ideas together out of simplicity doesn't invalidate the common idea. FORKS or SPOON, Lumper Vs Splitter, I think both sides would agree on that. Although the individual pages would be tropes in their own way, that's the main reason I'm not convinced it needs to be an index.

I just generally don't see a reason to complicate things unless there is misuse or an obscenely long page. The original page isn't that long and it's already soft split to begin with. I've also seen multiple trope repair discussions have everyone come to an agreement on something that requires a lot of work but no one actually wants to put in the effort.

edited 14th Mar '11 12:36:47 AM by KJMackley

...As one of four different connotations of masturbation in fiction.

Not knowing the context, I'm not sure that Buffy example wouldn't count, if the intent was to insult Dracula by associating him with the connotations masturbation has. That's how close it's getting to People Masturbate In Chairs.

Even if what you say counts as "narrative significance" and makes it a single trope in its own right, it needs to be fleshed out (heh) to make that clearer - maybe have a bit in the description showing how masturbation is not always the way it is portrayed in fiction - and the examples would need to be scanned to make sure those connotations are unambiguously part of each example.

I'm with Morgan Wick and MC42.

I categorically disagree with the People Sit On Chairs interpretation. Masturbation in media always has narrative significance, because it's enough of a taboo subject (and about sex to boot) to be tittilating absent any other deliberate connotations. The simple fact that it's memorable enough to be noted and commented on in every single work where it appears should be more than sufficient evidence.

As to what, precisely, the narrative significance is, that's a valid subject for a Lumper Vs Splitter debate, and I don't feel like intervening there, except to note that we do already have several related sub- or sister tropes, such as I'll Be in My Bunk, Porn Stash, Caught with Your Pants Down, etc.

edited 15th Mar '11 6:52:05 AM by Fighteer

I totally agree that it has narrative significance. But it can be broken down into different tropes. Masturbation itself is just too wide of a topic (eh, no pun intended) itself. Essentially, it would be a supertrope of those in the same way that we have Did Not Do The Research as a supertrope of tropes about authors failing to do research. The tropes you mentioned would be listed on that page too.

I'd just like to add my voice to those who think A Date With Rosie Palms should be an index.

Only the act of masturbating itself is rarely (if ever) what lends any of that narrative significance. At best, the narrative significance comes from additional details such as opinionated views about the subject, myths that it causes blindness or hairy palms, or the character masturbating getting caught in the act by another character.

There's always a bigger detail that should be noted whenever masturbation is mentioned or depicted in a work

edited 15th Mar '11 11:55:57 AM by SeanMurrayI

Sean, can you tell me any examples of masturbation in media (absent porn) that don't carry one or more of those connotations?

Yes, I can because not every example of masturbation in media involves a character actually going through the act. Same reasons why we have Discussed Tropes, Conversed Tropes, et. al.

Hell, MST 3 K referenced the hairy palms myth and masturbation in that "Spider Island" B-flick without any of the tropes you mentioned cropping up or any vivid depictions of any characters explicitly masturbating.

It wasn't even my original point though; the fact is, there's always a bigger detail to all these tropes than just simply "masturbating," even the three you list.

edited 15th Mar '11 12:08:05 PM by SeanMurrayI

Just to be clear, I am less opposed to turning the trope into an index and more opposed to the idea that just because you can break a trope down that it suddenly makes the super trope not a trope. People Sit On Chairs is about zero narrative significance, not about having a wide variety of narrative ideas with it.

3/4 of the tropes on this site can be broken down the exact same way this trope is being broken down. My Favorite Shirt can be broken down by item (my favorite shoes, my favorite jacket, my favorite sunglasses...) or by method of desecration (ink, mustard or dirt staining, cut by bladed weapon, broken by physical impact...), none of that invalidates the original idea as being less than a trope. An Aesop is the supertrope to dozens of other tropes, but just because we like cataloguing the different methods it gets used that doesn't make one of the oldest tropes not a trope.

I also have a feeling that, like Did Not Do The Research, if we break this trope down people will just use A Date With Rosie Palms regardless, because it is so broad.

The difference being that My Favorite Shirt is treated the exact same way regardless of the object in question, it's the singular significance of the act that makes it a single trope. In contrast, masturbating has at least a half dozen different significances depending on how it's presented, which is why it should be broken up. People Sit On Chairs is not about zero narrative significance; if it was then it wouldn't be called People Sit On Chairs because the act of sitting on chairs carries narrative significance. The reason why it's not a trope is because it carries a broad variety of significance depending on how the act of sitting on the chair is presented, the exact same as masturbation.

Compare the following:

• Someone sits on the chair with its back turned to conceal her identity, then turns around to show that it's Alice -> Chair Reveal
• Bob sits in a chair because he's unable to walk, so he's modified it to help him -> Super Wheelchair
• Carl sits in a luxurious chair to show off his status -> Cool Chair

All of them are examples of people sitting in chairs having narrative significance but People Sit In Chairs is not a trope because all of those examples are done for different reasons.

Likewise:

• Alice masturbates because she's sexually frustrated
• Bob masturbates to relieve stress after a long day but otherwise has a healthy sex life
• Carl is overheard moaning and shouting suggestively and is thought to be masturbating, until it's shown he's eating a chocolate sundae

All of those present masturbation as having narrative significance but for different reasons, like with sitting in chairs above. It's not even a supertrope because the reasons aren't related. That's why A Date With Rosie Palms should be an index and each of those should be broken into different tropes. Masturbation in and of itself presents no narrative significance, it's the reason for the masturbation that does.

After moving a bunch of examples to other pages (particularly Caught with Your Pants Down and Not What It Looks Like), I decided to take up Dragon Quest Z's suggestion and split off a few more examples to I'll Be in My Bunk. Obviously we'll also need some other more specific tropes.

I'd be fine with this as an index.

I've split out another cluster as Self-Abuse.

Now there does seem to be a thing in fiction that once characters discover masturbation, they do it all the time. Usually it's teens of course, but American Dad showed it with an adult.

(sees a troper tales section) ಠ_ಠ Do I want to know?

I think that can be moved to the fetish fuel wiki.

Isn't the Troper Tales page just a "don't add examples, please" disclaimer (along with a couple of wiseguys)?

EDIT: O_o Well…it used to be. Seriously, what the hell, Tropers?!??

edited 4th Apr '11 9:20:57 PM by 0dd1

Bumping in support of this page being an index instead of a trope.

For the record, a page can be both a trope and an index.

Well not this case. We're just making it a list of masturbation tropes.

Is still for the validity of the trope, but thinks the trope should have an attached index.